"That wine has no terroir"

I certainly have no problem with whatever wine anyone likes. And under $3 is hard to beat.

I will say when things are produced with purchased grapes or juice (like Little Penguin, Yellowtail, Charles Shaw, etc) there are inevitably some variation. So one cannot really count on this months

2005 Yellowtail tasting like what you buy next week.

But as to terroir, I think pedigree is an inaccurate comparison. "Sense of place" is a better phrase imho.

cheers Dale PS do you remember the Italian w> Recently while shopping in a very good Italian Deli in Kenosha WI, I

I think he got things sort of half right. YT and LP are almost certainly blends of wines made from grapes grown in many different vineyards with varying sets of growing conditions, so the concept of terroir here is somewhat meaningless. Also, I don't think that the term was being used correctly. Terroir, as the term is commonly used, is not something that wines "have" or "don't have". But then I have read more definitions of the term than I care to remember, many of them incompatible with many of the others.

IMHO, the term terroir, to its most ardent proponents, refers to some semi-mystical set of factors that can be found in only a few isolated locations in the world, most of them in France. Much of the mystique comes from the contention that it cannot be translated into English. No one has ever provided me with an adequate reason why the simple term "growing conditions" would not serve just as well.

One of my favorite stories relates to a set of video productions that Jancis Robinson made many years ago. In one of them, a Burgundian winemaker is presented with a glass of Oregon Pinot Noir. She takes a sip and then spits it out with the epithet "this wine has no soul". I suspect that to her, "soul" and "terroir" were more or less synonymous.

Vino

the people who push "terrior" also contend certain movie directors are "auteur" and consumers who say a $3.99 wine is consistently equal to one priced higher, either don't know nor care. They're the ones buying and the customer is always right. shaming someone into buying your wines is foolish even in Wisconsin.

All the rest is bs

Sorry I confused too much tannin with acid - not the same - to me it tasted like a very harsh central valley (CA) or hot climate wine. I like lots of fruit and not have my tongue assaulted with harsh hot flavors.

To the comment about differences in the taste of wines made from purchased juice - have 2 different vintages - 04 and 05 LP - both very good with 04 a bit more interesting but very similar in taste. One the Aussies will build up the demand for their products and then these bargains will go away.

It would be interesting to see the $ and volume import numbers of French, Italian and Australian wines into the USA for the past 5 years. From what I can see the Aussies are gaining a significant share of market in the USA.

I wrote a longer reply which seems to have not shown up (later posts have). Hmmm.

The short version- Call me Mr. BS! I look for terroir in wine, and consider Welles, Altman, Hitchcock, and Kurosawa auteurs.

Terroir is not a French only concept. Aldo Conterno is one of the proponents in Piedmont- actually all my favorite producers there probably are. Germany is probably neck & neck with Burgundy as to the primacy of terroir. Mark Vlossak in Oregon, Joe Davis and Paul Draper in California - it's about terroir. I might not be especially fond of Barossa Shiraz, but producers there will rightly say their wines have a sense of place.

I have no problem with folks drinking $3 wine, nor would I expect to find terroir there (in a wine witrh sources drawn from a huge and varied geographic area).

Hey, just call me Mr. BS, as I both look for terroir in wine and contend that certain movie directors (Renoir, Kurosawa, Hitchcock, Welles, Altman, and many others beyond the New Wave) are indeed "auteurs."

It's false to claim that "terroirists" only believe that certain French locales can produce wines with terroir. Certainly the primacy of certain crus (and of larger areas such as Barbaresco) is central to most views of Nebbiolo among fans. Germany is probably more about terroir than anyplace other than maybe Burgundy,. Terroirists applaud the wines of producers like St Innocent & Evesham Woods in Oregon; Hanzell, Kalin, Ridge, Copain, etc in CA (many more in each, just first ones that came to mind). Barossa is not my favorite terroir, but it has a style of its own, and "sense of place" is what terroir is about.

I wouldn't expect terroir from a $3 wine that is from a vast geograpical area. And have zero problem with those that buy and enjoy those wines.

--snip--

I've heard the same about some German wines (not sure if it's true), that some which are exported are cheap swill meant to make some kind of money on excess, sub-par grapes, etc. And I know some people who enjoy this wine, so to me both the buyer and seller win out here.

Others have answered this better than I can.

What other reason is there? :-)

-ben

Buon appetito!

M.

If you see a German wine with the word "Liebfraumilch" on the label, that's the swill. But there are certainly many others that don't taste like they were made from subpar grapes.

Dan-O (Graff Piesporter Michelsberg Mosel-Saar-Ruwer is still my fave!)

"Dan the Man" wrote in news:1164649502.326821.103900 @l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com:

My rule of thumb is no German wine in blue bottles! ;) And tying in to the "Gimicky wine" thread, most recently saw one named "Relax" (!), from Schmitt Sohne (famous for Liebfraumilch imports)...

d.

"Dan the Man" skrev i melding news: snipped-for-privacy@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...

That is a blend... from several vineyards. But, of course, it could still be a good wine :-) Anders

IMHO, the person who made that comment displayed a terrible lack of knowledge.

For a really good primer on terroir, visit Burgundy - where terroir is the dominant wine philosophy. Terroir refers to the character of the place, not just the grape. While the "terroirists" deny it, it really has more to do with soil than anything else. Ergo, there are vineyards where a number of rows are Grand Cru, but those immediately adjacent are not. Interestingly enough, before any here dismiss this as simply French ego, when you taste the two wines you can indeed distinguish them.

New World wines (California, Australia, Argentina, etc) all seem to favor fruit over terroir. But I can;t help but notice the growing pre-eminence of certain vineyards here in California - maybe most famous being the Eisele vineyard (now Araujo). Grapes from certain vineyards in California can fetch two or more times the price of neighboring vineyards that are immediately adjacent and managed similarly. Given two thousand more years - maybe we will also become more concerned with terroir?

Dale: 90% of he people who use the T word are either selling wine or a book/or trying to act superior--certainly not members of this venue--terrior is a valid concept and is of genuine interest to folks who are serious about wine and take the time to develop their palate. What did it for me were the

1978 Produttori Barbarescos from 8 different vineyards--I managed to find most at Gold Star and a few places in New Jersey just about all the vineyards and did a tasting with wine friends. At that time (1983) most serious piemontese & toscano wineries did not have multiple cru's, but as importers found they could increase sales when vineyard names found their way onto the label---even it was the same wine bottled before.

I do recall trying to explain to group of yentas who shopped at the store I worked the differences in Beaujolais & the characteristics of each commune. After twenty minutes they lost interest and basically said "Just tell us what's the best with a brisket". I also remember trying to buy all the different Chateau St Jean cru's for chardonnay---but most customers wanted the one (Robert Young) with the best WA score, even though I thought another bottling was better(Belle Terre).

So when a kid at Cafe Trendy tells me that they have in their cellar a better cru of Chateau Gournicht then the one on the list and I ask about the difference in price and quality--they trot the sommelier out to tell me the Fleishik Vineyard they're pitching is on the North slope and the Mundane bottling is a blend of several vineyard on lesser slopes--its bs---just a way to get me to trade up and impress my companions.

When I was a broker--I advised wineries to make separate bottlings and local wholesaler salespeople to mention how good the vineyard/cru was.

Same goes for auteur, the term was first used to c> > the people who push "terrior" also contend certain movie directors are > > "auteur"

Soils from adjacent vineyards can be substantially different. Winemakers very much do take notice. The consumer is less interested in terrior and more interested in what comes out of the bottle as a result. It's the skills and reputation of the winemaker and the winery that is noticed by the consumer. They know more about soils and grapes than I do.