"That wine has no terroir"

Couldn't agree more.

Dale, I agree with what you say, but "sense of place" is one of those semi-mystical concepts that I alluded to in a previous posting. I don't, however, question its validity. I just don't see how it differs from saying that any wine reflects the characteristics of the grapes that it is made from and the grapes, in turn, reflect the conditions under which they were grown. This begs several questions, some of which were brought up subsequent posting in this thread.

When a wine is blended from different lots of wine made from grapes grown under different conditions, the concept of "terroir" (I use the term for the sake of brevity) becomes less and less meaningful. Indeed, one could argue that once a wine is blended from lots of wine made from grapes grown in different vineyards, the whole concept of terroir goes out the window. But without such blends, we wine lovers would be much the poorer. We would never have seen syrah blended with cabernet sauvignon (at least from the F____), nor would we have ever had the Super-Tuscans, to mention a couple of examples. I'm sure there are some that would not lament the unavailability of such wines but I am not among them.

When I think of terroir, I immediately think of Burgundy, as I think most people who think about such things do. Classification is by vineyard (as opposed to producer as is the case in Bordeaux), vineyards are small (thanks to Napoleon) and only one variety of grape is grown in each one. In other words, all of the things that motivate producers to emphasize terroir. Similar things can be said about some other wine producing regions of the world (Germany in particular) but Burgundy is tops in this regard. It doesn't hurt that grapes have been grown and wine has been made from them for hundreds of years in Burgundy. They've had a long time to figure things out there.

I disagree with other posters who say that soil type trumps everything else in defining terroir. Clearly, if two vineyards are adjacent to each other, have recognizably different soil types, are managed identically, and produce grapes with recognizably different characteristics, soil is undoubtedly the primary factor in that difference. But going beyond that narrow example, dozens of factors come into play, such as latitude, slope, wind, rainfall pattern, etc., etc.

Also, to say that terroir is more important than variety misses the point. In places where terroir is emphasized the most, only one variety of grape is grown (or, as is the case with Burgundy, one white variety and one red variety). I would agree, however, with those who point out the downside of emphasizing variety over everything else (as we do in the USA). My favorite American reds are those that are labeled simply "red table wine" but are flagship wines made by some of the top producers.

Vino

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Vino
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Are you sure the guy wasn't Lt. Worf in disguise? Sounds like something he'd say. :)

JJ

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jj

Well, it differs in that it's shorter. :)

I disagree. A village Chambolle-Musigny might have juice from several different vineyards, yet still exhibit the terroir of Chambolle. A Barolo can exhibit the terroir of Barolo, even if it is from several vineyards. Or Cote-Rotie, a Napa cab, or a Rioja. One might point to the single vineyard wines as the epitome of terroir, but that doesn't make the concept meaningless at a larger level. I've blindguessed Brunello before because something seems Tuscan, to discover it was a SuperT with only 50% Sangiovese.

I agree. To add to your list, orientation and drainage are clearly high on the list.

I agree that terroir tends to be emphasized most in places with monocepage, but it certainly exists in places with blends - or even with multiple single varietal wines. As an example of the former, look at the noticable differences between the St. Emilion wines from the old gravel areas (Cheval Blanc, Figeac), limestone (Magdelaine), and the slopes (Angelus, Ausone). Certainly cepage choices make a difference (and winemaking choices can obliterate terroir totally, one argument against modern Pavie), yet there are similarities based on location. And for the latter look at some Alsace vineyards that grow Riesling and PG, and the similarities therein. Or some CA vineyards where some find the CS and Merlot both smell of eucalyptus.

cheers

Reply to
DaleW

And as I said later, that's the reason I continued to use it in the posting. Surely you're not saying that's the only reason you use it. I never use "terroir" in casual conversation. "Growing conditions" works for me.

Your points are well taken. But I still feel that once one starts to enlarge the area from which grapes are taken, the concept starts to lose some of its meaning. And I also believe that wines that by any definition of the term, "have no terroir", can be quite good. I don't think you ever expressed or even implied any disagreement with this statement, but others have, including the Burgundian winemaker I mentioned in an earlier posting.

We are in basic agreement on these points. The various sub-appellations of Bdx are almost unique in this respect. Alsace is like no other wine producing area in the world. Almost always, when I eat out, I will select an Alsatian wine from the wine list if there is one that goes with the entree I have selected. Sometimes I'll select the entree at least partly on the basis of there being an Alsatian wine on the list that I'd like to try.

Is the eucalyptus smell due to the trees surrounding the vineyard? I seem to have read this somewhere but I can't remember where.

Reply to
Vino

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