The 12 premium cultivars

Leo Bueno wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

Pinot noir? Grenache, perhaps? Grüner Veltliner! :)

d:D

And, with the caveat that the list is not in order of priority:

1. Zinfandel 10. Pinot Noir 11. Tempranillo 12. Petit Syrah, Nebbiolo, Grenache, Cabernet Franc, Muller-Thurgau, Sylvaner......

Nah, too tough to do. Too locality dependent. Too individual taste focussed. Why not just enjoy?

Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" "Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights" Both from Smithsonian Books

1. Muscat Blanc
2. Pinot Noir
3. Gewurztraminer
4. Chenin Blanc

These would be my choice of 12. Followed immediately by category 2 international varieties : Pinot Blanc Cabernet Franc Gamay Semillon Grenache Viognier Silvaner Tempranillo

So what about the others ? nebbiolo, primitivo, mourvedre, marsanne, vermentino, palomino, tannat, touriga nacional, furmint, gruener veltliner... Well, these are all truly great grapes, but occuring in a localized way.

You see it all depends on your criteria for considering a variety important. Above we went for the international varieties, but if you now asked which are the 12 grape varieties that result in the world's top wines, my answer would have been :

Chardonnay Riesling Cabernet Sauvignon Merlot Syrah Sangiovese Pinot Noir Chenin Blanc Grenache Tempranillo Furmint Nebbiolo

Cheers

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link

hey, what about nebbiolo! Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

Oops, Mike, I replied without seeing 2/3s of your post (odd spacing on other newsreader). Not a bad list, for that set of criteria, but I'm curious - furmint before gewurztraminer or gruner veltliner?

Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

I stuck to the principle of the original poster... no order intended

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link

Hi Leo and all,

the word 'premium' presents something of a problem for me because it's hard for me to decide whether a grape is good enough for that title. For example, I'm pretty certain that Grenache claims the biggest part of the globe under it (for black grape) but whether or not it's a 'premium' variety is another question. In my opinion it is: some of my very favourite wines are Grenache based but I think that the bulk of those vines are destined to produce thin, uninteresting wines in, for example, La Mancha. Airen, which can claim the most land under vine for white grape and all Vitis Vinifera, on the other hand never produces anything but dull wine. Well, I've never had one or even heard of one. And as such won't go on my list.

Here's mine, based on land under vine and being good grapes :-).

1. Grenache
2. Carignan
3. Merlot
4. Cabernet Sauvignon
5. Mourvedre
6. Tempranillo
7. Chardonnay
8. Sangiovese
9. Cinsault
10. Muscat
11. Pinot Noir
12. Sauvignon Blanc

Airen, Ugni Blanc, Rkatsitli, Bobal, Laski Rizling, Catarratto, Aligote and Chenin could fit here if I liked them. Riesling, Carmenere and Semillon can't, despite extra love from me.

I hope this helps ;-) Sammy

Personally, I find this whole exercise (and the related one on regions) less than useless. For example, why some arbitrary number such as 12 that qualify as "premium" (whatever that means, and clearly it means different things to different people, which should not be surprising) varieties? As far as regions are concerned, other posters have echoed my thoughts very well. I understand the need to simplify things for people that are just getting started learning about anything, including wine. But there is a (admittedly fine) line between simplification and "dumbing down" subject matter. I think these threads fall on the latter side of that line.

Just my opinion.

Vino To reply, add "x" between letters and numbers of e-mail address.

FWIW, I'd demote Chenin Blanc and Muscat Blanc to 2nd tier and elevate Pinot Blanc and Cabernet Franc to 1st tier. And what about crosses, such as Cabernet Sauvignon, Gewürtztraminer and (horror of horrors!) Chardonnay? Do these, strictly speaking, belong in the first tier, or is this merely a popularity contest?

Tom S

Again, I was looking for those grapes that are used everywhere, or at least in many places,... I agree that Muscat is not a top performer, but I would insist on Chenin being a top tier grape. Too many fabulous wines come from it. And yes, a lot of crap too, as in all cases...

and elevate Pinot

Hmmm, I like them too, but not international varieties really

All grapes are crosses when you come down to it. I would not consider the above 3 as "crosses" in the normal sense.

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link

Perhaps not Chardonnay, whose origins are somewhat obscure, but include a rather ordinary grape (Gouais Blanc IIRC) - but what about Cabernet Sauvignon, which is well known to be a cross of Cabernet Franc and Sauvignon Blanc? Surely, both parents are worthy of top tier status.

I suppose this all begs the question: What _new_ varietal crosses could have potential for greatness? Rather boggles the mind...

Tom S

Salut/Hi Vino,

le/on Tue, 31 Aug 2004 00:00:27 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

Really? "are considered" begs several questions.

Yup, I agree. And I'm increasingly getting the feeling that Leo is using us to do all his research for his wine class. This is smelling increasingly like Mario Desiderio (not suggestying they're one and the same, by the way)

For me "premium" has quality implications, and any list which includes Pinot Gris and not Pinot Noir has to belong to cloud cuckooland.

For what it's worth, (and trying NOT to be either country or region biased) and in no particular order, would you go along with this?

Riesling Chardonnay Sauvignon Blanc/Gris Sémillon or else Pinot Gris Chenin Blanc Gruner Veltliner

Pinot Noir, Cabernet Sauvignon Merlot Syrah/Shiraz Sangiovese Tempranilla

which goes to show how ridiculous the exercise is, as it leaves out many very great wines worldwide. How can one leave out:-

Tannat. Ch Montus Prestige (frequently highly placed against Bdx in competitions) and many good wines from Uruguay)

Malbec - Wines from Cahors, component in Bdx, Argentina

Zinfandel - probably the mst typical California grape

Gewurztraminer, excellent in Alsace (especially for difficult foods) and elsewhere.

Viognier, real class whites

Furmint for what are amongst the worlds best sweet wines.

Nope. Silly exercise.

"Sammy" skrev i melding news:YROYc.233$ snipped-for-privacy@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...

Riesling can't? Well, then the 2003 Hochheimer Hölle TBA from Franz Künstler at 198 Euros a half bottle and the 2003 Kiedricher Gräfenberg TBA from Robert Weil at 230 Euros a half bottle are not premium wines..? Sorry, Riesling is in the top tier..

I'd say for whites Chardonnay (sigh) Riesling Gewurztraminer Grüner Veltliner Semillon Sauvignon Blanc

and reds Cabernet Sauvignon Syrah Pinot Noir Merlot Nebbiolo Zinfandel (red...)

There are quite a few others occasionally giving great wine - but these mentioned are ubiquitous... (ah well, with ezceptions :-)

Anders

I am limiting my list to only 7. However in addition to the main great grapes, we must have some helper grapes available for Bordeaux. A poor wine can be made from any variety of grape. Thus I rate by which grape can produce the greatest wine when grown in the right spot by growers who know what they are doing. The wine maker has to be top, and the owner must be a person who aims for the best.

WHITES:

1. Furmint - A great Tokaji Essencia exceeds even a Riesling TBA in complexity, richness, balance, ability to age, etc. Even Louis XIV called it the king of wines when he could have anything that France had to offer.

1. Riesling - Not far down from Furmint. The best TBA can be as complex as Tokaji Essencia, but it usually is not quite as rich or long lasting.

2. Chenin Blanc - Despite the tons of so-so Chenin Blanc produced, the rare late harvest sweet ones from a few select regions of the Loire can exceed anything I have tasted from Sauternes includng Yquem. They are more complex, richer, and last longer.

1. Chardonnay - Although it does not produce wines of the complexity, richness, or ability to age as do the above, a top Montrachet is about as good as you can do with a dry white wine.

RED WINES:

1. Pinot Noir - On the average, many more good Cabernet Sauvignon wines are produced than Pinot Noirs. But at the top in the right year, La Tache and Romanee-Conti far exceed any Bordeaux I have ever tasted in complexity and richness of taste and smell.

1. Cabernet Sauvignon - Of course some helper grapes often are needed. This grape needs no elaboration.

2. Merlot - Chateau Petrus is based Merlot and can be as great or greater than most of the Bordeaux first growths based on mostly Cabernet Sauvignon. Of course Merlot is a helper grape in many of the first growths.

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cwdjrx, nice post.

Aha, this explains why Furmint made Mike T's top 12 list - I thought Tokaji was a blend.

And let's don't forget the top dry Rieslings like Clos Ste. Hune or the best Smaragd Austrians.

Again, while maybe not the equal of the top Quarts or moulleaux Vouvrays, some great dry whites from Vouvray and Savennieres, too.

Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

I love chenin (local pronunciation "ch'nin"). Agree on all of the above. Had a Savennieres Coulee de Serrant 1970 recently, still young! There are plenty of 99s on sale at the local french supermarkets (how does being sold in a supermarket affect biodynamics?).

So I'l have several quarts of Quarts de Chaume anytime, and I will lay on the Layon just as often... sans oublier Coteaux de l'Aubance, they have quite a bounce, and voulez vous Vouvray avec moi? For the latter, Francois Pinon is great.

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link

Dale Williams states:"Aha, this explains why Furmint made Mike T's top

Yes Tokaji in general can be a blend, althogh Furmint usually is the main grape and the one most often concentrated enough by botrytis to produce a very small amount of ultra rich juice for Essencia by free run before the grapes are pressed. Other allowed grapes, include Harslevelu, Sargamuskotaly( a yellow Muscat). Oremus has been allowed since 1994. A little Chardonnay is now also grown in th region. There have been a few Muscat Aszus at auction, but I do not think most of them are of the quality of a Furmint based Aszu.

Some of the French, German, and Austrian dry Rieslings are a much better match for most food than TBA or Essencia. A dry Auslese can sometimes be very good, but sometimes can be heavy. A dry Riesling of even BA richness is possibe, but usually would be too high in alcohol and unbalanced. David Bruce in California once made a dry Riesling from grapes of about BA ripeness, but it had over 17% alcohol and was very unbalanced to my taste. Any dry Riesling I have ever seen, including Ch Ste. Hune that is my favorite dry Riesling, lacks the great complexity and ability to age of a top TBA. Thus I would have to put a dry Riesling on the list as an addition just below Chardonnay(Montrachet).

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I should have used Clos Ste. Hune rather than Ch.

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LOL! Nice goof on the Pointer Sisters hit song. :^D

Tom S