Tipping my be out????

In article , snipped-for-privacy@earthlink.net says...

I've always loved the UK term, "discretionary gratuity added... " on the restaurant fare list and the bill. Since it seems to ALWAYS be added, I have always speculated that the line should read, "mandatory gratuity added." . I suppose that they are just stating that it is at THEIR discretion, and they exercise THAT discretion 100% of the time. In the US, it has been a standing policy for a percentage to be added to all bills for, say five + diners. So long as the gratuity is clearly shown, and the patron is informed of its presence in more than "fine print," I think it is a good policy – so long as the wait-staff doesn't fall down on the job and expect this remuneration, regardless of how poorly they perform their jobs. Personally, I like the idea of the establishment figuring the pay of the wait-staff into the cost of my meal, then I am allowed to "reward" the staff, when service exceeds my base expectations, but that is just me. Heck, I even tip UK cabbies, when they gather my wife's luggage for her, stack the gear in the front, to great height, just so that her feet are clear of any obstacles, and then load her stuff in front of the curb-side check in. I've actually had to physically PRESS the 10 's or so into their hands, saying "No, thank you VERY much." Besides, they speak perfect English, give us detailed tour notes along the route, offer clean vehicles, know where they are going, and drive in a sensible fashion. I cannot say the same for Chicago, DC, San Francisco, Boston, or many, many other US cities. Heck, in some of THOSE cities, I'd just take a cab, where more than one door works, and the incense isn't as thick as High Mass in a small chapel.

Hunt

Salut/Hi Richard Neidich,

le/on Sat, 27 Aug 2005 20:42:30 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

When we were there in November last year, they said "we normally add 18% to the bill for staff gratuities" (or some such). Though they did explain that it was not compulsory.

In my opinion...this would be a change for the better here in USA.....The origens of this I understood was that math was not a good subject in Europe so thats why service was included :-)

Better for who?

For all.

Waiters / Serve Staff are professionals. Or should be. Like any other employee they do a job and should be compensated by the employer for such primarily.

Imagine if this was any other industry...your accountant...I only pay you what I want--Yeah Right!~!! Your attorney...your doctor....your auto mechanic...parts plus what I want to.

No...they really should have a wage.

At Chez Panisse in Berkley California they did the same thing. I asked about it cause it was first time I had seen it like that and they said the all get health benefits now, have disability and life insurance.....etc....

I think it make a nice statement about the restaurant.

You know what...the service was OUTSTANDING> So even the customer wins.

See the following link in today's Seattle P-I.

Btw, here's their poll results on the subject:

How much do you usually tip when you dine out? (Total Votes: 4456)

So clearly we're not a nation of cheapskates. Ot at least the 4,456 P-I readers aren't.

No, it makes a nice statement about the employer's willingness to provide for his/her employees. That's how you keep good ones. That's why hardly anybody ever quits Costco, and the customer service is almost always excellent.

Mandatory tipping isn't a tip, it's a surcharge. Just because I always tip well doesn't mean I should have to relinquish the option of not tipping at all if the service sucks.

JJ

Dana

The function of tipping has no function except to pay a portion of the wages that the receivers get. In other words, if there were no tips then the market in jobs, which is manipulated by competetive wages, would take over naturally. Those places that pay peanuts get monkeys. Those who dont mind being slung their hash this way will pay less for their meals. What's wrong in paying higher prices for meals? When you wish to get better service, then you let them know by eating at a better place, where the combination of food and service quality is best. Tipping interferes with this process, tempting customers to set the costs themselves, by selecting certain waiters for tips. This never works in practice, because everyone knows if you do not tip, your service is not only not the best, it is deliberately made worse. So in practice then, everyone ends up tipping evenly regardless of quality. You find out the "usual" percentage, and fork up without a whimper.

My instincts tell me that tipping is a humiliating process for both parties. What about good management and pride in one's work? How else is good work obtained from the rest of us?

Many local restaurants (Florida, US) add a tip amount with an explanation that goes something like this: "For your convenience, a

I am always tempted to write on the little paper: "For *my* convenience, you should have taken *off* 15%".

By the way, what is the "European method"?

-- ================================================Do you like wine? Do you live in South Florida? Visit the MIAMI WINE TASTERS group at

Leo Bueno wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

You will find at the bottom of the menu in France tax and service included. ie the price of the meal listed is the price you will pay. 50 euro does not become 50 euro plus tax of 17% plus tip of 15%.

"Leo Bueno" skrev i melding news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

WYSIWYP... (What you see is what you pay) Anders

Btw, when you buy a car in the US, do you tip then?

I certainly agree..

You give tips for Circumcision :-)

So, how do you explain tipping at a restaurant that you have never gone to before and to which you will never go back again?

In other words, how does a wait staff that has never dealt with you know that you are a good or bad tipper? And, since you are never going back to the restaurant, what's in it for you? Since there will be no next time, then your tip gets you nothing.

-- ================================================Do you like wine? Do you live in South Florida? Visit the MIAMI WINE TASTERS group at

Leo,

I don't understand...what is your objection to a restaurant including the tip in 15%-20% on your behalf already included in the bill?

Assume the service is impecable....what is your issue?

Two separate issues. First, tipping under the circumstances described below (never went before, never will go back) seems to be bad economics, particularly for the tipper, who gets nothing in return for his tip. Note the tip comes at the *end* of the service, so the tip obviously was not an incentive for the staff to provide better service--unless, that is, the staff has a crystal ball that told them that the tipper would be a good one.

The second issue is that adding a percentage to the total bill as a tip is a deceptive practice, intended to make the cost of the meal items look cheaper than they really are, thereby making the restaurant appear more competitive.

Suppose restaurant A advertises $20 for a 2 pound lobster and restaurant B advertises $19 for it. If restaurant B then tacks on an automatic 15%, then its real price is $21.85.

What price do you think restaurant B advertises for its lobster dinners?

This is a trick used in many industries to make the dirty players' products appear cheaper than honest competitors'.

For example, years ago some cruise operators used to advertise, say, a Caribbean cruise for $900 plus "port charges", implying money they had to pay as landing fees to ports at destination countries.

Turns out the "port charges" included no only the amount of money the operator had to pay port authorities but a kicker they pocketed. So, the $900 advertised price was a fraud.

-- ================================================Do you like wine? Do you live in South Florida? Visit the MIAMI WINE TASTERS group at

OK, so if the restaurant just raises their prices 15% to 20% you don't have a problem?

Your only issue is showing a separate charge for service/Tip at end of meal?

Therefore if they charge $20 for a lobster today but tomorrow is is $24 and servcice is included is that OK.

If thats not your just a cheapskate that does not want to pay a living wage...which is it...:-)

Leo, our service industry has centered around a tip for service....the better the service the higher the tip. The worse the service the lower the tip. Personally I have never stiffed a waiter completely. Even if I had a complete ass which has happened a few times I did not stiff. I left 10% because I still figured the server deserved to eat. Hopefully they would eventually get fired or find another job that fit their personality.

That said...if the restaruant and customers viewed the service industry of wait staff as professionals...tipping would be rude. You don't tip Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants, Financial Advisors....nor would you tip a wait staff.

They could include and show pricing as final or show at bottom of the bill the % added. In reality there is no difference to me.

When in Europe I had outstanding service in France, Spain, etc....tip was included. In USA I have had excellent service when no tip was included. When entertaining large parties and tip was included for 6 or more service did NOT suffer.

Therefore I think you are making more of this than it is. In reality if you had poor service and service was included you would speak to the manager. That does not mean that the wait person gets away with giving you poor service. In my experience....wait staff does not deserve to be taken advantage of and I remember my youthful days working my way through college as a waiter...you can give OUTSTANDING service and some customers simply did not tip or tip well enough. They therefore get a sale vs everyone else.

I do think if you value the service as a profession it should be compensated as such. Method of invoicing that service as "service included at __% or just raising pricing and indicating "No tipping allowed" works for me. No difference to me at all. Assuming you live in Florida Publix Supermarkets has a No Tipping policy for Baggers that take your groceries to the car. It used to be and probably still is posted on the doors of the store. They view their baggers as professionals and you still get the excellent service.

Do you in Europe? For most car sales, there is not much service provided. It would be like tipping the grocery store when buying a dozen eggs. However if, for instance, you used the services of a concierge or buying service to purchase the car (or clothes or whatever) then I think a tip is appropriate.

Dimitri

The issues:

A) You're assuming that the service is impeccable. Clearly, that is not always the case. If the service sucks, what then is your recourse?

B) I don't want any establishment presuming what I would pay, or if I would pay, in tip. That's at my discretion, not theirs.

JJ