TN: Rioja 1938-1987 at Txikito in Chelsea

cate fruit with a pleasant burnt sugar edge, elegant but with some stuffing . A-

Not bad for a 10$ wine to age so well :)

I have a M de Riscal reserva label in my wine label book. In the beginning when I travelled to Italy to "Steal" my wife and found it hard to get wines other than italian wines there I managed to find this rioja. They charged

When I then went back to california I found it in traders joe for 10$!.

When I went back to Denmark I found it at the supermarket for 50DKK (6.5eur o).

I wouldnt have expected it to be a long time ager, since it is so smooth an d easy drinking when young.

licate fruit with a pleasant burnt sugar edge, elegant but with some stuffi ng. A-

g when I travelled to Italy to "Steal" my wife and found it hard to get win es other than italian wines there I managed to find this rioja. They charge d 35euro there. My wife wasnt used to wines that were not local (terrano/re fosco) and she loved it, so it was worth it.

and easy drinking when young.

I wouldn't extrapolate aging of modern era Riscals from aging of earlier vi ntages, a lot has changed. The most Rioja-centric person at tasting (with lots of old Rioja experience ) called 1970 the last great vintage for Riscal. Maybe Santiago is reading and has an opinion. For my tastes (pretty opposite of yours I think!) the best Rioja candidates for aging are the more traditional properties such as CVNE, La Rioja Alta , and LdH. But I haven't tasted that many recent vintage Riojas.

vintages, a lot has changed.

ce) called 1970 the last great vintage for Riscal.

That could be. I was thinking that might be the case. Funny, Riscal is on sale this week in the supermarket, with promises of awards from wine specta tor.

es for aging are the more traditional properties such as CVNE, La Rioja Al ta, and LdH. But I haven't tasted that many recent vintage Riojas.

Im not so sure our tastes are opposite. I have the impression you prefer Bo rdeaux over burgundy, like me. you prefer LdH over the bulk of modernist ri oja, as do I.

Now, I prefer napa wines over Bordeaux unlike you (my impression of your ta ste). But that could maybe be explained by the difference that you have acc ess to exotic well-aged samples, and I am limited to mid-class new release

- usually max 15y old, but mostly just 3-7 year old wines. And there , I th ink, you get more value from Napa and around than Bordeuax. I do think that bordeuax has equal wines to Napa in the range I drink, but they just cost more, despite the extra intercontinental taxation. For whites, we are opposites for fresh ones, as I cannot appreciate them, u nless its a buttery creamy one, but probably could enjoy the same well aged ones (e.g. LdH).

r vintages, a lot has changed.

ence) called 1970 the last great vintage for Riscal.

n sale this week in the supermarket, with promises of awards from wine spec tator.

ates for aging are the more traditional properties such as CVNE, La Rioja Alta, and LdH. But I haven't tasted that many recent vintage Riojas.

Bordeaux over burgundy, like me. you prefer LdH over the bulk of modernist rioja, as do I.

taste). But that could maybe be explained by the difference that you have a ccess to exotic well-aged samples, and I am limited to mid-class new releas e - usually max 15y old, but mostly just 3-7 year old wines. And there , I think, you get more value from Napa and around than Bordeuax. I do think th at bordeuax has equal wines to Napa in the range I drink, but they just cos t more, despite the extra intercontinental taxation.

unless its a buttery creamy one, but probably could enjoy the same well ag ed ones (e.g. LdH).

I think Napa and Bordeaux have little in common from a stylistic standpoint in terms of red wine. I have access to a fair amount of well aged Bordeau x and Napa as well as more current releases. I find the current release wi nes to be vastly different from each other in terms of Napa v Bordeaux. Ri peness levels and use of oak seem to be the biggest diffferences so if you prefer lush, concentrated, higher alcohol wines with a fair amount of oak t hen Napa would fit the bill at the same price point as Bordeaux.

DaleW wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

I do not have much experience with old Marqu?s de Riscal, but I have tasted the last 15 vintages and the wine is a clear underperformer. Their "Reserva" which is the basic wine of the winery, lacks depth, complexity and intensity, and I typically find some defects on top of that.

As a result, the wine is now "supermarket wine" and is selling cheaper every year.

I would not be surprised that they have different lots for different markets. And I would not be surprised that the worst lots remain in Spain, where the wine is drank by non-discerning wine drinkers that think that Riscal is still good.

However, they know how to make great wine, as proved by their 150 Aniversario line. I tasted 2001 and 2004 and, wow, that's serious Rioja. Price is 40 euro and not 10 euro,

La Rioja Alta is back on track and recent releases are drinking very well, pure, with distinction and a clear La Rioja Alta style (meaty, with a touch of barnyard). And this is happening with the crianza Vi?a Alberdi. Sadly, most of La Rioja Alta is also supermarket wine and it is difficult to be

CVNE and, specifically, Vi?a Real, is back on track. I have been drinking the Vi?a Real Reserva 2010 (another 12,90 euro supermarket wine) with delight. Last bottle... yesterday.

L?pez de Heredia, I must confess that I only enjoy in big vintages. Tondonia 2002 I found a bit lean for my tastes.

Michael Nielsen wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

That's it: Riscal, the wine that is discounted at supermarkets.

But... get one, pop the cork, drink. Like? Go empty the shelves!!!

That's what I would do, anyway. The only palate that I trust 99% of the time, is mine.

s.

nt in terms of red wine. I have access to a fair amount of well aged Borde aux and Napa as well as more current releases. I find the current release wines to be vastly different from each other in terms of Napa v Bordeaux.

But while I prefer the heavier napa wines when young, maybe I would prefer the bordeauxs when aged. Like what I recently found out about that I prefer aged cornas, while the young ones are not significantly different from new world syrah. And like a 4y oak LBV is ready to drink on release and a 2y o ak vintage port is better after decades of aging. Like I find the leaner fr ench inspired napa wines like BV Latour, KJ Stature, SG Cadmium lesser when young than the heavier reserve cabs, but when I then taste the older versi ons, I suddenly give them top grade.

ou prefer lush, concentrated, higher alcohol wines with a fair amount of oa k then Napa would fit the bill at the same price point as Bordeaux.

There are differences and overlaps. in the way I put wine types in boxes, 5

The differences between those wines are insignificant compared to the diffe rence to for example the smoky stony olive tasting Cornasses and crozes her mitage, which are in a box of their own.

Fruity peppery syrah - some rhone and some new world are in another box. Th ats significantly different from the napa box.

My groupings are more affected by what standard it is made to be. The mouth feel and depth of the wine is how I group them, not where they are from. S o you can have some burgundies in the same box as some barolos. Not long ag o I had a very surprising barolo that I would place in the napa/bordeaux bo x. (still talking about mental boxes).

Another barolo is in the same box as some burgundies. The Ladoix I had rece ntly is together with Marimar cristina and kistler. Another box is for frui ty pinot noir like Forefront, KJ, Beringer and argentina pinots.

Trying to find hte common denominator here. Maybe my groupings are based mo re on tertiary tastes and textures than primary notes.

My boxes are big enough to have variations inside them, but you are more li kely to find a 100$ pauillac in next to a 70$ napa than a Beringer Founders Cabernet next to the Knights valley. Those are more significantly differen t. Founders belong more in the "Cheap chile wine" box together with a lot o f salento wines (again despite its name, it is a style not an area). basica lly a box with pointless characterless diluted or bitter wines.

This also means that a 20y old napa or bordeaux will be in another category than the same 5y wine. For example, a young cornas will be in the new wor ld syrah box until it grows up to earn its place in the cornas box.