TN: SOBER does Bdx, Burg, and CA


SOBER gathered at Jacques' house last night. The first wine was opened before I got there, and declared dead- another victim of White Burg PreOx. Worst part was it was a magnum, the '99 Bonneau du Martray. Sad.
With a nice cheese assortment, we waited for late arrivers with the 2001 Guigal la Dorianne Condrieu. Big floral/musky aromas over ripe approaching overripe apricot/peach fruit. Label says 12-14% abv, but someone astutely notes it finishes a bit hot.. I'm not a fan, but then Viognier is not my thing. B-
We moved to table, where Jacques started a great succession of courses. First up was a butternut squash soup with duck confit, with the first two blind wines:
Flight One
#1 Sandalwood, red fruit, medium bodied. Some felt too oaky, I found it borderline. But nice structure.
#2 Ripe, broad-shouldered but with some elegance, earth.
Jacques confirmed we were in Burgundy. No one nailed actual wines.
#1 1998 Domaine de Romanee Conti Romanee St. Vivant. B/B+
#2 1997 Mugnier Musigny. A-/B+ 1997 isn't my favorite vintage, but I also liked the Roumier Musigny.
Flight Two With a lovely vols au vent (chicken/mushroom/pea ) One person wondered if we might be in Loire based on #2's nose, but most of us in white Burgundy from start
#1 Oak, pear, and vanilla. A touch of herb. A little short, almost tired, but still hanging on.
#2 Mature, nutty , sweet. Others liked this less than I, with nose descriptors like pool vinyl. Once it was revealed I was surprised it was this mature, but I liked (more than most). But drink up.
#1 1997 Neillon "Champgains" Chassagne-Montrachet 1er B
#2 1998 Pernot Bienvenues-Batard-Montrachet B+/A-
Flight Three Jacques said both from same vintage, I early on guessed 1989 Bordeaux. Wrong!
#1 Ripe cassis fruit, a little cigarbox, a bit herbal. I don't mind a bit of green if there's enough ripe fruit behind. Someone says it's more chipotle than bell pepper, I agree. Good length.
#2 Ripe, long, blackberry and currant fruit, some earth, a little herb here also. Young.
#1 1985 Lynch-Bages. Good bottles of this can be good, like tonight. We speculated re the reasons for variation, my vote is for lots of travel/trade due to WS WOTY. This bottle showed well, though it kind of faded in glass at end. My initial score however was B+
#2 1985 Phelps Eisele Cabernet Sauvignon. B+/A-
Main course was beautiful duck breasts, with green beans and a cauliflower gratin. Yum!!!!!!
Flight Four
#1 A plethora of secondary aromas- mushroom, earth, smoke-but fruit (black currant and plum) is still vibrant, and there's a lovely hint of eucalyptus.
#2 Ripe, long, cedar and cigarbox, not big, but elegant and long.
#1 1977 Heitz Martha's Vineyard Cabernet Sauvignon (John got it as Martha's on second guess). A-
#2 1978 Palmer (Margaux) A-
Nice way to end. After dessert, group broke up quite satisfied. Thanks to Jacques for a great night hosting (I'm up next, the bar is set high!).
Grade disclaimer: I'm a very easy grader, basically A is an excellent wine, B a good wine, C mediocre. Anything below C means I wouldn't drink at a party where it was only choice. Furthermore, I offer no promises of objectivity, accuracy, and certainly not of consistency
Reply to
DaleW
The first wine was opened > before I got there, and declared dead- another victim of White Burg > PreOx. Worst part was it was a magnum, the '99 Bonneau du Martray. > Sad.
Dale Nice notes
I wonder how many bottles from say 95 to 2000 white burgundy are duff. From reports and personal experience, we must be talking of 10's of thousands or even in the hundreds of thousands, and many are lying in cellars waiting to be drunk on many a birthday, anniversary etc.
In the UK, main wine merchants, eg The Wine Society, will give credit for oxidised bottles, no questions asked.
Reply to
John T
> The first wine was opened > > > before I got there, and declared dead- another victim of White Burg > > PreOx. Worst part was it was a magnum, the '99 Bonneau du Martray. > > Sad. > > Dale > Nice notes > > I wonder how many bottles from say 95 to 2000 white burgundy are duff. From > reports and personal experience, we must be talking of 10's of thousands or > even in the hundreds of thousands, and many are lying in cellars waiting to > be drunk on many a birthday, anniversary etc. > > In the UK, main wine merchants, eg The Wine Society, will give credit for > oxidised bottles, no questions asked.
No chance of that happening in the USA John. I just opened a bottle of 2000 Olivier Leflaive Criots-Batard MOntrachet and a bottle of 1999 Bonneau du Martray Corton Charlemagne and both were badly oxyidized.
Reply to
Bi!!
> Flight One > > #1 Sandalwood, red fruit, medium bodied. Some felt too oaky, I found > it borderline. But nice structure. > Jacques confirmed we were in Burgundy. No one nailed actual wines. > > #1 1998 Domaine de Romanee Conti Romanee St. Vivant. B/B+ I have only a single bottle of 1988 Romanee St. Vivant, Leroy rather than the DRC. I have been in no hurry to open it, because many top 88s needed much age to resolve properly, and Leroy's top wines are often some of the slowest to age. Some who have compared the two find Leroy better than the DRC 88. I do have a few bottles of DRC La Tache 1988 and a bottle of Le Romanee-Conti 1988, but I likely will not open these for several years. > Flight Four > > #1 A plethora of secondary aromas- mushroom, earth, smoke-but fruit > (black currant and plum) is still vibrant, and there's a lovely hint > of eucalyptus. > > #2 Ripe, long, cedar and cigarbox, not big, but elegant and long. > > #1 1977 Heitz Martha's Vineyard Cabernet Sauvignon (John got it as > Martha's on second guess). A- I have the 76 Martha's, but not 77. It is still quite good, but not one of their top wines. I do have the 77 Bella Oaks. It is very good, but I have not tasted it against the 77 Martha's. > #2 1978 Palmer (Margaux) A-
I have not tasted the 78 Palmer. However I still have several bottles of the 79, which some rated as one of the top wines of the vintage shortly after release. Mine is still holding well, and it is worth tasting from bottles that have been very well stored. I do not know how the 79 compares with the 78.
Reply to
cwdjrxyz
> >> Flight One >> >> #1 Sandalwood, red fruit, medium bodied. Some felt too oaky, I found >> it borderline. But nice structure. > >> Jacques confirmed we were in Burgundy. No one nailed actual wines. >> >> #1 1998 Domaine de Romanee Conti Romanee St. Vivant. B/B+ > > I have only a single bottle of 1988 Romanee St. Vivant, Leroy rather > than the DRC. I have been in no hurry to open it, because many top 88s > needed much age to resolve properly, and Leroy's top wines are often > some of the slowest to age. Some who have compared the two find Leroy > better than the DRC 88. I do have a few bottles of DRC La Tache 1988 > and a bottle of Le Romanee-Conti 1988, but I likely will not open > these for several years.
Not to split hairs, but Dale's bottle was a '98, a quite different year in Burgundy.
Mark Lipton
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Reply to
Mark Lipton
> > >> Flight One > > >> #1 Sandalwood, red fruit, medium bodied. Some felt too oaky, I found > >> it borderline. But nice structure. > > >> Jacques confirmed we were in Burgundy. No one nailed actual wines. > > >> #1 1998 Domaine de Romanee Conti Romanee St. Vivant. B/B+ > > > I have only a single bottle of 1988 Romanee St. Vivant, Leroy rather > > than the DRC. I have been in no hurry to open it, because many top 88s > > needed much age to resolve properly, and Leroy's top wines are often > > some of the slowest to age. Some who have compared the two find Leroy > > better than the DRC 88. I do have a few bottles of DRC La Tache 1988 > > and a bottle of Le Romanee-Conti 1988, but I likely will not open > > these for several years. > > Not to split hairs, but Dale's bottle was a '98, a quite different year > in Burgundy.
It may be about time to get my glasses changed! I do not have any top growths of red Burgundy younger than the 1990, because they likely would not reach their best while I still can enjoy them. Wine making may have changed a bit over the years, but I usually consider a top growth Burgundy from the best estates that appears fully mature under 20 years not to be quite up to standards. I seldom open one under 20 years old. Many of the better ones I have tried younger are very dumb in their early teens and only become really interesting as secondary bouquet and taste begins to emerge in perhaps the late teens and may then develop for decades. The top DRC wines often are noted for this, and Leroy's top wines often are some of the slowest around to develop and often some of the most long lived. I am not even drinking top 85s yet.
Reply to
cwdjrxyz
> > It may be about time to get my glasses changed! I do not have any top > growths of red Burgundy younger than the 1990, because they likely > would not reach their best while I still can enjoy them. Wine making > may have changed a bit over the years, but I usually consider a top > growth Burgundy from the best estates that appears fully mature under > 20 years not to be quite up to standards. I seldom open one under 20 > years old. Many of the better ones I have tried younger are very dumb > in their early teens and only become really interesting as secondary > bouquet and taste begins to emerge in perhaps the late teens and may > then develop for decades. The top DRC wines often are noted for this, > and Leroy's top wines often are some of the slowest around to develop > and often some of the most long lived. I am not even drinking top 85s > yet.
Just to make you feel better, I'll mention that today I took receipt of a recent auction purchase that includes 6 bottles of '88 Burgundy: A & F Gros Richebourg (2) Mugneret Clos Vougeot Groffier Chambertin-Clos de Beze Groffier Chambolle Amoureuses Rion Chambolle Beaux Bruns
I have yet to decide how and when we'll open these, but I'll certainly post notes when I do. I also still have several de Montille '88s, and one Lafon Volnay-Champans. Because many Parkeristas seem to have given up '88 (and '93) for dead in Burgundy, I find that it's possible to pick up Grand and Premier Crus at a fraction of the price they sell for in current vintages.
Stay tuned, Mark Lipton -- alt.food.wine FAQ:
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Reply to
Mark Lipton
> > > It may be about time to get my glasses changed! I do not have any top > > growths of red Burgundy younger than the 1990, because they likely > > would not reach their best while I still can enjoy them. Wine making > > may have changed a bit over the years, but I usually consider a top > > growth Burgundy from the best estates that appears fully mature under > > 20 years not to be quite up to standards. I seldom open one under 20 > > years old. Many of the better ones I have tried younger are very dumb > > in their early teens and only become really interesting as secondary > > bouquet and taste begins to emerge in perhaps the late teens and may > > then develop for decades. The top DRC wines often are noted for this, > > and Leroy's top wines often are some of the slowest around to develop > > and often some of the most long lived. I am not even drinking top 85s > > yet. > > Just to make you feel better, I'll mention that today I took receipt of > a recent auction purchase that includes 6 bottles of '88 Burgundy: > A & F Gros Richebourg (2) > Mugneret Clos Vougeot > Groffier Chambertin-Clos de Beze > Groffier Chambolle Amoureuses > Rion Chambolle Beaux Bruns > > I have yet to decide how and when we'll open these, but I'll certainly > post notes when I do. I also still have several de Montille '88s, and > one Lafon Volnay-Champans. Because many Parkeristas seem to have given > up '88 (and '93) for dead in Burgundy, I find that it's possible to pick > up Grand and Premier Crus at a fraction of the price they sell for in > current vintages. > > Stay tuned, > Mark Lipton > -- > alt.food.wine FAQ:
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I'm also a fan of '88s, and agree that they are comparatively undervalued.
I'm a huge '93 fan, but haven't seen such low prices for most of the wines I buy, '93s are priced at a premium. Parker/Rovani never really drove the Burg market. Except maybe for some producers that fit their preferences-Dugat, Gros Frere, Mortet, Magnien, Groffier, Laurent Le Moine, etc. Those prices might be low (but maybe for good reason). But I think if you look at prices for top wines from Chevillon, Dujac, Rouget/Jayer, Rousseau,D'Angerville, Lafarge, Drouhin,Bachelet, Mugnier, etc you'll find '93s among most expensive (deservedly).
Reply to
DaleW

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