Wine in Venice

OK...I agree. But again one final point.

M. Tommassi provided names for Venice Italy. I would have provided the same one M. Tommassi did therefore I did not reply.

However when another poster asked for clarification I did not feel that was wrong. What I want to know is why did others belabour that issue so much that this tread is so long.

What is wrong with asking that question. I have heard you numerous time ask a poster when he asks about a wine what country is he before responding. Please advice.

Dwmidnt

Salut/Hi Dale Williams,

Thanks!

le/on 05 Oct 2003 03:47:36 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

I'm afraid that Dick's perspective on this is extremely Americo-centric and unhelpful. It's typically inaccurate as well.

Certainly. Did Dick suggest otherwise (he's still in my kill file, so I only ever read him via others' quotes)?

There's not much point in us Europeans taking part, as I don't think anyone over here had even _heard_ of either of these two American towns (honestly

- I'm not being in any way snide or unpleasant) before this episode.

Even if we disagree

One reason I killfiled Neidich, is because he seems unable to tolerate what he sees as criticism of the US (though why this thread should be so conisidered is beyond me) without descending to name calling. I don't regard it as anti-British because Americans have never heard of Washington Tyne & Wear (whew, finally spelled it right).

Let me get this straight.

1) I take issue because a poster asked for clarification and he gets bashed.

2) I ask what reason would anyone take issue with someone requesting clarification

3) You relate the two points above to me being American-Centric?

I think that is ridiculous in total. My statements had nothing to do with US-Euro relations. It was simply a point that even if 99% of us would think that when someone states Venice...and likely means Venice Italy, why would anyone blast and debate and other for a point of clarity.

Ian, I think you are far off base here. I hope someone in this group will respond so that Ian understands my point. I could care less about Venice specifically but more about this issue of clarity being at issue.

"dick"

derision. Even if we disagree

Dale, for the record,

I had no issue with any of M. Tommassi's posts on his participation with the Venice issues. In fact they were humorous as well. His assumption on Venice was fine.

What I take issue with is that someone in the group asks for clarity...and therefore the poster replied and provided same. Others then debated why clarity was ever needed. That is what my issue is.

Ian is totally incorrect that any of my statements here were America-Centric or Pro American.

It only shows how this group can be polarized over a simple question of clarity be provided.

Dwmidnt

[snip!]

It's okay. We haven't heard of lots of towns in Europe either. Funny, though, considering we Americans are always the ones being bashed for lacking knowledge of geography. Most Americans will have heard of at least one of them, if not both. They are not exactly obscure. It didn't stop you from jumping in the fray and proclaiming that the only Venice that comes to your mind must be in Italy, even though you now admit you hadn't even heard of the other cities.

Dimitri

Probably. Maybe even 90%. So what? It is not unambiguous.

The only chauvinists here have been the Europeans.

I disagree. Venice, CA is a major tourist destination. Lots of Europeans (especially Germans) go out of their way to see it. In reality there is not much to see, but it has an international reputation for freaky people, muscle beach, and other quirks. Visit on any given day and you will see tourists speaking many different languages there. In fact, I think the Europeans are more amused by it than the Americans.

An international perspective *includes* the Americans reading this newsgroup. Even if they are the only ones to possibly be confused, they make up a significant percentage of this group's traffic. The only one making this an ugly issue has been the Europeans - by responding to my query in the first place. There was no need.

Dimitri

snipped-for-privacy@soda.csua.berkeley.edu (D. Gerasimatos) wrote in news:blpmkc$3lt$ snipped-for-privacy@agate.berkeley.edu:

snip

In fairness, Dimitri, I find that a number of your posts have a certain "certainty" about them that I think tends to make you an easy target. I know that it has bothered me in some earlier threads.

But more importantly, I think you do a disservice to many of the thoughtful and constructive European posters by suggesting that it was the "Europeans" who made this an ugly thread. I think if you go back and look at the notes posted in the entire thread (which I just did) you'll find that it really is one indivudual that behaved badly. This individual is one who tends to consistently engage in anti-american bantor. Just because one person behaves badly does not mean that every European in the group should be branded as behaving badly. To do so would be to engage in just the type of behavior that you found offensive.

John

I did not mean to disparage "Europeans" as a whole, but meant to point out that it does not seem that Americans took issue with me. That is, while not all Europeans have an attitude, certainly the people with attitude in this thread have tended to be Europeans. I find that interesting, since both of my parents are European. This is important only because two of the cities in question happen to be American. You state yourself that it was a European (if only one) that behaved badly. You see it as an isolated incident, but I notice it as a trend.

Dimitri

Who are you referring to?

Mike

Salut/Hi John Gunn,

le/on Sun, 05 Oct 2003 20:41:04 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

I'd not describe the phrases

"Being in Italy perhaps you do not realize that."

"peanut gallery"

"How nice of you to speak for the entire audience of this newsgroup and decide whether they needed clarification or not."

as have a "certain certainty", but more like deliberate abrasiveness. If he can't stand the heat, he shouldn't go into the kitchen. He started the bad tempered rudeness, now he's crying foul when he gets it back.

(which I just did) you'll find that it really is

I suppose the finger is pointing at me.

Meaning phrases like

"And even for an American, comparing Venice FL with the city of the Doges and scene of Monteverdi's greatest hour is going a touch far."

I suppose. Yes, I tease Americans for being parochial as much as I tease the French and British for it. If you re-read my contributions over the years, you will find I'm far MORE critical of winemaking in France, for example, than I am of America. Long before you came on the scene here, I vigorously attacked a good friend of mine - Christian Callec - for making anti-american remarks, for example. But really, John, I do feel that to regard my comments as

behaving badly. For months - until I killfiled him - I read anti-French comments from Dick Neidich. Is that reaction to be construed as being anti-American too? I am not anti any nation, but I AM passionately opposed to parochialism and chauvinism, wherever it is demonstrated. I don't like it here in France where I am perpetually patronised by the French for being British (with the implication that no one from the UK can cook or knows about wine), and I don't like it "here" in afw, when ANYONE (Australians, New Zealanders, Americans, Austrians, French or Spanish) seeks to denigrate other nations or their wines or their people. I would say that such behaviour is far WORSE than my reaction to it. If Ed had replied jovially to Michael Tomassi's original comment, instead of abrasively justifying himself, I'd not have entered the thread.

This is my last post on this topic.

snipped-for-privacy@soda.csua.berkeley.edu (D. Gerasimatos) wrote in news:blqvh4$ie1$ snipped-for-privacy@agate.berkeley.edu:

I screwed up, Dimitri caught me. I corrected, Let's drop it.

And just for the record, Paris is in Idaho!

Lets please try to correct your statement. For the most part my poor behavior was really the month of February 2002. Please try not to overstate my bad behavior. Most was meant to be humorous.

My statements were not sensitive and I have since ceased. For months my posts have been on topic and not anti France.

For the record my purchases have not declined on French Bordeaux, Burgs or Champagne...other than the fact with kids in college I spend less per bottle and shop around.

My cellars are French, Euro, I have 2 units in addition to a true cellar.

I have not boycotted French Women...I love the accents...but I stay away from them cause my wife would kill me.

I still like French Pastry...but cannot eat cause I am diabetic.

I love French Fries even though they are not really French, and refuse to call them Freedom Fries. But not matter what name they go by I cannot eat them as for health reasons.

I think France hiring Woody Allen to get tourism back was stupid since he is fairly disliked by most Americans(I think he is funny as hell Btw).

I think American-French relations are strained and it will be a problem for a long time.

The next time I think of going to Paris...it will not be Paris, Texas either.

Ian, you need to get over my statements from the past. Even though you will not be reading this since as you constantly like to say I am killfiled. You get a pleasure from bringing that up. I think it is obnoxious but perhaps that is part of a different issue.

(which I just did) you'll find that it really is

No, Ian, there is no finger worth mention and there is certainly no anti-Americanism rampant in this thread. All we have is a gratuitously dumb comment about qualifying one of the major cities in the world to ensure it is not confused with some local burgs. Following that inanity for whatever reason the aptly named "dick" began yelling for apologies and miscellaneous other nonsense. Then, finding no sympathy, he did the Usenet equivalent of screaming "fire" in a theatre, by claiming prejudice and bigotry on the part of those who were not coddling his little mind. Just a weekend of silliness on their parts, but it doubtless kept them off of the streets.

pavane

There was no screaming and you example is incorrect. This is an issue of mannerly behavior.

That is all.

It a stranger was to drive in front of your business and ask directions to Carolwood, you might ask them, The Town, The Street, The Avenue...for clarification.

That is all this person did, and for such the thread is now 46 posts deep for clarity and the debate of if asking is anti european. Or demonstrates anti american behavior to suggest there can be more than one Venice.

I truly think that your thoughts are somewhat dictated on where you live. That if a person in Portland Oregon said he was headed to Washington for the weekend he likely means Washington State. If a person in Richmond Va says he is going to Washington for a couple days he likely means DC.

Why is it so hard for some to be less than rude and have given the poster that requested clarity without all the crap and attitude that went with it.

I do beleive he is due an apology from those that pushed on this thread making it more than it is. And Pavane...in no way is that the same as yelling fire in a theater. One actually does damage to the public good and can cause harm. Mine was to create an atmosphere of tolerance. You continue to demonstate poor behavior and I hope others can see your attempts to flame at a fire.

Basta(enough) you all!!!! Somebody has to cease the current cycle of recrimination, you all sound willing but can't resist a final volley, oops correction/clarification. Its very disconcerting to read a thread which has little to do with wine but plenty to do with arcane debaters points. Its deja-vu all over again.

Thanks God for not having invented 'intellectual rights' in the american interpretion of this term before giving a lot of towns names. :-)

Regards Jan (sorry - couldn't resist - wil not persevere in this thread)

Yes, we can see how well you did. Tolerance. Indeed.

bye

pavane

Agree. Too much about far too little.

Pace

pavane