about to make 2nd kit, looking for some pointers

I have posted here before and have learned many great things by following the threads. I'm about to make my second batch of wine and I want to ask a few specific questions first. I already purchased a juice kit before completely planning this out, so I'm stuck with what I've got.

From a previous discussion I was planning to use a different yeast than what came with the kit. I plan to order from MoreWine because I'm going to order some green coffee and beer ingredients at the same time. Yah.. I'm a junky. What yeast do you recommend for a cabernet? I have another kit that's a tempranillo. What's a good yeast for that?

I plan to age this wine until it's ready. If that's 5 years so be it. After fermentation is over should I bottle right away? Continue to age in a secondary fermenter for a while and if so for how long?

I plan to use oak cubes. How much should I use for a 6 gallon kit?

It's my understanding these kits do not have enough preservatives for long aging periods. What is the appropriate preservative to use, how much should I use, and when do I add it?

The first batch I bottled has a ton of gunk in the bottom of each bottle and it's hard to poor without getting it into the glass or decanter. With homebrewing I would let the beer sit in a secondary fermenter for a month and then siphon off the top to minimize this. Can I assume a similar process for wine?

That's it I think. I'm looking forward to start stocking up our wine cellar with properly aged wine so my wife and I can start drinking it. :)

Cheers, Scott

Reply to
Scott Lindner
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Home of the MOON RIVER BREWERY and DELANCO VINEYARDS

I would use Lavin RC212

Follow the KIT directions. Sounds like you did not follow on your 1st batch. Ferment 1-2 weeks.. RACK witit 2 weeks.. add fining agents.. RACK off leave a month or two..RACK and bulk age.

Depends on what your tastes are start with 4-6 ounces AFTER you rack off from "finning"

ALL KITS have all what you need. Potisun metabisulfite is a good one to use

YES the more you rack the clearer the wine unless you filter

Reply to
Tom

I guess I'm confused. Why are you not using the ingredients in the kit or following their directions?

I've made about 10 kits, and they're fine.

Reply to
Bob Becker

Scott you've already received some good comments from Tom. But I must admit to sharing the same thoughts as Bob.

As a general rule, you make a kit by following the instructions. The main exception is lengthening some of the time spans and bulk aging.

Some people add a little extra metabisulfite prior to bottling if they are going to be aging the wine for 6 months or more.

Before I make too many suggestions, it would really help to know exactly what kits we are talking about. Their are dozens of different Cab Sauv kits on the market, and each one has different instructions, clearing agents, etc. And none come packed with the most important ingredient that a wine maker can add....time!!!

Finally, be careful with oak cubes. It is very easy to end up with an over-oaked wine.

Steve

Reply to
Steve

I followed the instructions perfectly. What makes you think I did not?

This kit clearly states in the instructions there are only enough preservatives for no more than three months of aging and if I wanted to age longer that I'd need to add more preservatives to it. That's straight from the instructions that came with the kit. I didn't read that until in Step 4 of its instructions so I was already into the process.

Excellent. Thanks.

Cheers, Scott

Reply to
Scott Lindner

I'm confused why so many people feel I'm not following the instructions. What I've said was written directly in the instructions provided with the kit. I followed the instructions perfectly.

Reply to
Scott Lindner

The instructions for my first kit state there are not enough preservatives for aging any longer than 3 months. When I tried the wine after three months of aging I posted here to ask for questions to improve my home made wine. My questions in the post you are responding to are directly based on the results of all of the feedback from back then when I first called for thoughts to improve homemade wine. So if you and the others have problems with these questions, take it up with the experienced winemakers that prompted me to ask those questions.

Scott

Reply to
Scott Lindner

Since there is some confusion about why I'm asking questions about making wine I am providing the reference thread that prompted me to ask these questions.

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If you have issues with why I'd do something different than the kit specifies, take it up with the original authors in this thread.

Cheers, Scott

Reply to
Scott Lindner

Some kit wine will still be quite drinkable after 5 years but I don't think that it will bonify much past 12 to 18 months after it's conception.

Not sure what you're kit instructions says, but normaly you do the fermentation, rack and let sit for X week or month, rack again and then either age or bottle.

Sulfite is added prior to fermentation and/or right before bottling. Since you are starting from a kit and have no idea how much sulfite is already present in the must, I'd add just a little prior to bottling.

Yes. Racking and letting the wine sit for a period of time should solved this problem. When making wine from grapes, I rack ~3 months after crush, ~3 months later, once more if I added oak and right before bottling. I do not clarify and my wines are clear with sometimes a trace of sediments that is no more then what you'd find in many commercial wines.

Waiting 3 months after bottling should assure that the wine is ready to drink. For some mysterious reason, 3 months seems to be the magic time frame in winemaking :)

A good kit can yield a good wine when properly done. Take notes of everything you do and start from there on your next batch. There's no reason you can't make proper wine from a quality kit.

With that being said, the better kit wines that I've had could be rank as "superior table wine" but not more. They can be quite satisfying if drank as such but if you think that you can open up a bottle every 5 year for a couple of decades and find a wine that as gain complexity and offers a whole new dimension then what it was 5 years ago, you'll be disapointed and end up with a flat, lifeless alchoolic beverage at some point.

Good luck,

Stefan Mazur

Reply to
smazur

Scott, So many people feel that you did not follow the instructions as usually, when following the instructions that come with a kit; one does not get a ton of gunk in the bottom of each bottle.

Guy

Reply to
guy

Hi Scott,

Perhaps it was these quotes from your original post:

"From a previous discussion I was planning to use a different yeast than what came with the kit." "I have another kit that's a tempranillo. What's a good yeast for that?" "I plan to use oak cubes. How much should I use for a 6 gallon kit?" "What is the appropriate preservative to use, how much should I use, and when do I add it?"

All of the above have been answered by the instructions in every kit I have seen. I certainly can't speak for the community here but I think the general feeling is that fiddling with a kit is fine -- provided you have made the kit exactly per instructions as least once, then have some specific goal or change to make.

Good luck,

Casey

Reply to
Casey Wilson

OK, lets back up. First off, I don't make kits so take what I say with a grain of salt. You are making dry wines if you are making cab and tempranillo.

If the kit asks you to add sorbate, ditch that. It has no value if the wine is dry. It's only in there as cheap insurance if the wine didn't ferment fully.

I don't understand the 3 month comment. If you have a packet called 'sulfite' that usually has a heck of a lot of sulfite in it; a lot more than you need to keep the wine 3 months. The right way to add sulfite is by measuring the amount in the wine and adding to a level that ensures protection. The right way to do that cost's around $300 which is a little steep for most of us. (An aeration/oxidation apparatus is needed.). That said, the rule of thumb when bottling and not measuring existing sulfite levels is 1/4 teaspoon potassium metabisulfite (in a little water to dissolve) to 5 gallon of wine. That is roughly 50PPM, unless your pH is higher than 3.6 that wine will keep for years.

As to oak, you can use cubes instead of chips and I think you will be happy with the result. Just don't add a lot all at once. Add 2 ounces/5 gallon and taste a week later. If it tastes the way you want, stop. If not, add another ounce. The oak flavor subsides with time so keep that in mind since your goal is to age the wine.

I think using different yeasts on a wine that is destined for aging may or may not be worth doing. I'm not convinced yeast strain contributes much to flavor after a year but could be wrong. As long as the yeast fully ferments the wine I'm happy. I do use one strain when i want to reduce acidity; 71B likes to eat a little malic acid. I can't see you needing that in a good kit though.

Joe

Reply to
Joe Sallustio

Scott - Generally, people get (and give) pretty good advice in this group. I have to disagree a bit, though, with the recommendation to use an alternate yeast on a kit. Tim Vandergrift (Tech. Svcs Mgr for Winexpert, and a very knowledgeable guy) has described in other posts some of the issues involved with this. The short version is "kits are different." A specific yeast that works well on freshly-crushed Syrah, for example, may just not work nearly as well on a Syrah kit. Part of the reason is that the concentration of the juice in the kit- making process changes some of the flavors and creates some chemicals in the juice that the yeast need to be able to digest. Some yeasts handle them just fine (e.g., Premier Cuvee). Others do not. Hence, replacing a kit yeast with another yeast, even if that yeast variety is recommended for the particular grape, is a chancy business. Tim has described how his firm tests new kits with many different yeast varieties (dozens, or more) in order to find the best ones. There really is a lot of science, as well as wine-making smarts, that go into kit development. Except in really extraordinary circumstances, following the kit-maker's directions is likely to give you the best result you can get, based on the ingredients you are starting from.

From your posts in other threads, it sounds as though you are trying to produce a seriously tannic Cabernet Sauvignon. That's probably going to be the hardest style or variety to do well from a kit, as tannins just don't survive the kit-making process very well. I think this conclusion is supported by the results (recently issued) of the latest amateur winemaking competition held each year by Winemaking magazine. In virtually every category, kits won far more medals than wines made directly from grapes. The exceptions were Cabernet Sauvignon and Zinfandel, where more medals were awarded to wines made from grapes. In terms of the Gold and Silver medals, Cabernet ran about 2:1 in favor of grapes as compared to kits. To me, the results indicate that, in general, kit-wine quality has improved a lot, to the point where kits compare favorably to wines make directly from grapes, but that there are still a few styles / varieties that just don't work as well with kit technology (yet).

If you do want to pursue a really high-end Cab. from a kit, there were four that received enough medals to stand out from the competition (IMHO, and in no particular order):

Cellar Craft Limited Release Cabernet Quartet (this was a one-time kit; don't know if there are any left in circulation) RJ Spagnols Cellar Classic Winery Series Cabernet Sauvignon RJ Spagnols En Primeur Calfornia Coastal Cabernet Sauvignon Winexpert Selection Estate Series Lodi Ranch 11 Cabernet Sauvignon

I have not made any of these kits, and there are very likely other kits out there that might satisfy you. But these kits did well enough that they seem to me to be promising candidates. You should also plan on aging these wines for at least a year (or two) before you make any final judgments on quality.

Best of luck --

Doug

Reply to
Doug

Yah. My wife and I love very dry reds. A long time ago I asked on another forum if it was possible to make the same quality of red wines that we enjoy that are store bought. We enjoy what I would describe as the $12 - $15/bottle range just to set the stage. Typically cabernets but we do enjoy some of the Spainish and Italian reds as well.

My memory is bad, it's 6 months. Here are the instructions for the first kit I made which prompted me to post my first thread to understand why we don't care for it:

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I know from homebrewing that yeast can play a huge role in the final product even when aged. However, those are ales yeast. I have no clue when it comes to wine yeasts.

Thanks

Cheers, Scott

Reply to
Scott Lindner

One way to get tannins in a kit might be to buy some dark table grapes, crush them, drink the juice and add the skins to the kit. That way only the skins are contributing to flavor. Leave them in for a a few weeks minimum, they should sink. Ed Goist did that with good results.

Joe

Reply to
Joe Sallustio

That's an interesting suggestion. I wonder though, if you're going through that much effort why not go straight from grapes? I mean, is there a benefit to this hybrid approach?

Scott

Reply to
Scott Lindner

Scott:

Sorry that I (and others) jumped to the conclusion that you weren't following the instructions. For example, I thought that WE instructions were specific about how much K-meta to add.

Yes, if you are planning on aging a VR kit for length of time adding extra meta-bisulphite is recommended. The WE Selections instructions that I just checked online say 1/4 tsp K-meta per batch. Note this is NOT true of all kits, and is not even true of all WE kits (extra meta not required with WE Crushendo kits, I believe).

You still haven't mentioned, that I noticed, what brand the Cab and Tempranillo are. Somebody else already mentioned that WE doesn't recommend changing yeasts. I have read that wine yeast changes in kits are noticable when the wine is young, but not after it has aged.

Steve

Reply to
Steve

Yes and no, in general you should be able to make a better red wine from grapes than from juice or a kit. It truly depends on the quality of the raw ingredients each was derived from. A high quality kit might make a better wine than mediocre grown grapes of the same variety.

The initial quality of the wine grapes has much more to do with the end result than anything else.

Joe

Reply to
Joe Sallustio

That's good to hear about the WE Crushendo kits. From what it sounds like, I should start buying those kits because they include the grape skins. Right?

Sorry about that. They are both Selection Limited Edition. I ordered them from Northern Brewer.

Cheers, Scott

Reply to
Scott Lindner

Scott:

These are both high end kits from Winexpert. They do testing of yeasts, and personally, I would NOT change the yeasts provided. Out of interest what yeasts came with these kits (probabaly NOT EC-1118)?

Steve

Reply to
Steve

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