I suspect your views on this topic might alter somewhat if you had considerable money invested in an enterprise where bacterial spoilage could result in product loss, a drop in sales, and possible lawsuits. In such ventures, the word "probably" just isn't good enough.
Brian
My views wouldn't change [at least for those reasons], but my actions might. Fear of lawsuits or persecution by various politically-motivated government regulatory agencies in today's world makes many of us take "precautions" (to protect our posteriors) that are otherwise unnecessary and/or unwise. But no matter what precautions we take, an element of risk always remains. One must weigh the cost against the result.
"Probably" and "good enough" (or their equivalents) are terms (or at least concepts) used by the regulatory agencies, and the manufacturers of the products you espouse. Lawyers, self-designated "consumer advocates, and politicians try to convince gullible juries, consumers, and voters, that anything less than unattainable perfection is unacceptable. Then they try to sell us products purported to reduce those risks, which do nothing but feed the next wave of advocates. It's a very profitable business for everyone except the producer, consumer, and tax payer.
What is the bacterial count on a surface that has been washed with soap and water and thoroughly rinsed? What is the bacterial count on a surface that has been washed with bleach or Idophor? What is the bacterial count 10 seconds later? Or five minutes later, when you are more likely to be placing food on the surface? What type of surface is it? In what sort of environment is the surface?What type of bacteria are present? Can they be killed with soap and water? [Most bacteria can!] Can they be killed with bleach or Idophor? [Some bacteria can not!] Which is the most effective agent for killing those type of bacteria? [Some bacteria are resistant or immune to certain "sterilizers"]. Rinse a (clean) glass bottle under a stream of hot water. Then examine it under a microscope.
Why do dairies, who once ran acid through their lines to cleanse them, now use Idophor (followed by a thorough rinsing)? What will they use tomorrow, when Idophor is declared a health hazard, or ineffective against the xyz microbe? Why is bleach the preferred agent in meat-processing plants? Why is sodium metabisulphite banned?
It has far less chance of "nocking" [sic] at my door than most other places, and I guarantee that my premises are cleaner and more free of bacteria than any commerical establishment. But we were not discussing "dining". As I explained in my previous post, the conditions in a restaurant are completely different than in most homebrewing applications. If you were making wine in a restaurant kitchen, I doubt any "sanitizer" would be sufficient.
Water at 180F is only dangerous if one is careless. The same applies to bleach "at proper concentration". When hot water is sufficient, there is no need to use bleach. When bleach is required, I use it. When neither is sufficient, I use other methods.
There is such a thing as "overkill". There is also such a thing as compliance with unsubstantiated "common wisdom" or politically-motivated government regulation despite knowing that the prescribed method is LESS efficient than another. If more is always better, than you should be heating all your equipment to a red-hot glow before using it. Or perhaps passing it through an atomic reactor. Of course, by the time it cools off enough to use, it will be contaminated by all the germs in your kitchen, but why worry about details?
To equate washing glass vessels in hot water to not cleaning the equipment is ridiculous.
You would be wise to take even more care in sampling the offerings of someone who uses commercial "sanitizers" without rinsing them off. Remember, every currently banned substance was once considered safe by the industry that used it and government which regulated it. Formaldehyde was once used as a preservative. DDT was once considered a blessing from above. Various sugar substitutes have gone from "recommended" to "banned". Numerous "sanitizers" have been removed from the marketplace. Idophor and Saniflush may be next.
Little cheap shots like that don't contribute toward an atmosphere of respectful disagreement in discussions.
Brian
It was far more expensive a shot than the post to which I was (and am) replying.
Howdy, I will refrain from the debate, but will outline my general method. If I have say 6 gallon carboys to rack, I take one that I have "sanitized" by use of normally hot water and sulphite solution,(yes I know hot water is dangerous) or I use Steramine tablets w/ water. I take this first carboy and use it to rack into first. After the first carboy is empty I mearly rinse it out, and then fill it from the next carboy in line and then repeat as needed. Logically if there isn't an infection in the carboy I am emptying, then why the need for further cleaning? I have made quite a few hundred gallons of wine this way without ill effect. HTH John Dixon
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