I just started a Merlot kit (Kendall Ridge Showcase and did the juice ever smell and taste good) with Lalvin RC212 which is about the only red yeast that I can get in a 5 gm package. Doing some reading over the christmas break seemed to point out that this yeast is more suited to younger reds like gamays or pinot noirs.
Does anyone sell other yeasts in small packages? I believe Lalvin BM-45 would be one of interest for Cabs or Merlot.
If it's impossible to buy in small packages how much work is it to store it as a culture if it was possible to get a sample. Would you have to reculture it every 3 months or something?
I used BM-45 on my Baco Noir last year. It came from Watson's in Niagara, I think he re-packages the larger packages for home use... that's where I got mine. If you're in the US, Presqu'il might sell yeast like this. HTH.
The Red Star wine yeasts all come in 5-gram sachets, as do about 10-12 Lalvin yeasts. In Europe, many, many yeasts come in sachets of 5 grams, but a few come in 15 -gram sachets, some in 50-gram "drums" (small cans), and several in 500-gram bulk. Go to
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and choose a shop. I doubt you can find any that only offer a single strain.
I sent an email to Lalvin/Lallemande and they mentioned Funk Wines in Niagara which was also mentioned in another thread on Cdn Internet Ordering. Also:
Nothing wrong with RC212 IMHO. I've used it for many age-worthy reds. Morebeer dot com started packaging ICVD80 and 254 in 6 gram packs this year. I just pressed out my cab and petite sirah this weekend (http://66.241.210.57/blawg/000029.html). Both were fermented with the aforementioned strains, 50/50. A beautiful thing for sure. Lots of spice and licorice, yum!
I'm not sure about the re-culturing thing. I looked into it back in my beer brewing days and it was a little more complicated than simply keeping a slurry active. Yeast do not reproduce sexually, so you don't have to worry about dominate/recessive trait issues, but I know the labs still try to isolate single cells and draw them through a slant, etc. to build a viable colony. There is a reason for that, I just don't remember why...
It would be nice to have some more yeast options, like the ICVD80 and 254 that you mention. I just read their description at Scott Labs and they sound interesting.
I remember the difference in my kits between using the standard EC-1118 and switching to more appropriate yeasts and would like to experiment further. It would be interesting to break out a kit into two 11.5l carboys and use different yeasts on each.
Don, I have over 40 different yeast strains in my refrigerator, 14 of which I ordered from England and 6 of which are samples obtained from Texas wineries. No, I don't have every strain I would like, but I seem to find an acceptable strain for whatever I want to make. There are plenty of wineries out there with winemakers willing to listen to what I want to do and offer suggestions (and yeast) to help me. You just have to visit them.
If there are strains you want that are not available commercially in
5- or 15-gram sachets, then it is up to you to find someone using what you want and obtain a sample from them if they will accommodate you. The other alternative is to write to the manufacturer and ask them to sell you a smaller quantity, although this strategy has only twice worked for me.
Jack, I have never been successful asking yeast suppliers to sell me small quantities of yeast. But, I have had several suppliers send me free samples. I asked for a small quantity of Prise de Mousse many years ago when it first appeared in active, dry form. Red Star sent me a 10 Kg bag. I supplied half the home winemakers in S. California with PdM yeast that season. Regards, lum
Lum, Have you or have you ever heard of anyone having success in culturing yeast in order to have a future supply. I seem to remember reading about this in beer brewing but I also seem to remember it requiring re-culturing every 2 months or so.
With a new baby on the way I think my level of commitment has already been set but if the yeast were to go dormant and this procedure was only required every year then it might be worth it. I'm fairly happy with Lalvin D-47 for almost all whites but I would like to have more of a variety of yeasts for reds.
I've done a bit with yeasts, mostly beer since wine yeast is usually short money and used once or twice a year. If it was a hard to find strain that I really wanted, I may consider doing it.
I have kept yeast alive in the fridge under half fermented liquid medium for months. I let it warm up, added some fresh medium to the starter and it took right off.
I do this in a regular basis for beer yeasts that I know I'll use again within 6 months or so. I always get the yeast going again a week before I brew to make sure it is still viable and still give me the option of buying a new culture if it is not. If it is going to be in the fridge for a while before use, every once in a while I'll let it warm up, decant off the liquid and add new medium but I've been stretching the time between doing this. So far a few months doesn't appear to be a problem as long as the initial cell count is high.
I've also frozen both beer and wine yeasts in a glycerin solution and revived the yeast which was pitched into a starter. Takes a few days to build up a good cell count and I had to step up the starter, but it worked. I've done this with yeast frozen more than a year, but I've also run into a couple of dead cultures. So far I haven't been able to isolate why the dead ones were dead.
I've taken a single 5g packet of wine yeast and build up enough of a starter to pitch into mutiple 5 gallon batches. I don't think I would do this on a regular basis because it's not really worth the $.50 - $1 savings. It was more for education than money.
This brings up a good quesiton... can you use one packet of yeast for more than 5 gallon batches? I have a 6 gallon carboy, that will probably start with 7 gallon primary. do I have to use 2 packets of yeast as they are supposidly for up to 5 gallons? or will one packet still work okay??
dave
email: dallyn_spam at yahoo dot com please respond in this NG so others can share your wisdom as well!
I'm mostly a brewer, not a winemaker, but in any case I usually pitch
2 packets of wine yeast for 5 gallons of wine, let alone 7. What's the point on skimping on a product that's probably going to cost you several
10's of dollars worth of personal labor alone. Extra yeast is cheap insurance against stuck fermentations and bacterial or wild-yeast contamination. I think that winemakers worry less about this because wine (must) is naturally more resistant to contamination than beer (wort). But why take chances in any case?
The mostly brewer part of my comment also relates to the fact that it's really drop-dead easy to step up yeast with malt extract. Yeast, beer or wine, loves to grow in malt extract. Dissolve 1/4 lb of extract in a quart of hot water (hops optional), boil 10 minutes and cool. Put in a gallon jug and add the packet of yeast. Wait 3 or 4 days until it settles again and you will have enough yeast for 15 or 20 gallons of wine. Pour off the liquid (if you hopped it you can drink it) and use half the yeast for your 7 gallons of wine. Pour the rest into a sanitized small mason jar and stick it in the fridge. It will keep for a couple or three months and be more active than new dry yeast. It'd not that hard, really.
One packet is more than enough for six or even seven gallons.
I think it goes beyond wine must being naturally more resistant to infection. A lot of wine makers also use sulfite before pitching yeast which also reduces the chance of infection.
Two other factors come into play. First grape wine musts are more nutrient rich than beer wort. Grapes are loaded with the micro nutrients that yeast need and a significant amount of oxygen is disolved in the must. Many wine makers add usable nitrogen (DAP) to the must because sometimes it is lacking. Yeast usually has no problem getting the cell counts up quickly like it can in beer.
Second, because of the neutral character of wine yeasts and the extended aging done on wine, the yeast play much less of a role in the flavor profile of wine than it does in beer. Underpitching in beer can have more of a negative effect than it does in wine.
Why not 3 packets? I would think there is a right amount within reason and that's the one to use. I'm guessing as well, considering the amount of wine kits being made out there with one packet, that one is the number. Don't forget that the must is sulfited and that should delay the wild yeast activity. That goes for grapes or kits as I believe grapes are sulfited at the crush for that very reason.
For beer yeasts, I use dried malt extract boiled in water. I shoot for a SG of around 1.020. I make sure I aerate well and usually add some fermaid. As far as how much, I tend to use about a pint of mediumm in a quart container but I don't sweat it too much.
When I do wine yeast, I try to get some juice from wine grapes or just use a little wine. I then add fermaid and sugar.
One thing to be careful about is don't let it ferment out all the way before putting it in the fridge. Once the sugars in the medium are gone, the yeast will start on their stored sugars. It wakes up better if they still have some stored energy to get them going.
Morebeer.com sells most of its yeasts in three different size packagess - 6g, 72g, and 500g. I think they've got a good selection, and a phone call may even get more than what they have on their webpage.
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