Grape crushing

Roller spacing is usually adjusted based on the size of the seeds (which you do NOT want to crush), not the grapes. You could run everything through the crusher again, or manually TRY to crush the uncrushed berries (using a 4x4 post) in your primary. (The latter procedure won't be easy, because the uncrushed berries will probably be floating).

However, if only 20% of the fruit remains uncrushed, I would leave it alone. Some people deliberately leave a portion of the grapes uncrushed to obtain a fruitier flavour. You've just become one of them. :)

Do your Merlot and Cab need additional tannins and colour?

What is your volume. You have to punch down 2 or 3 times a day. If the volume is not too great just use your hands to punch down and stir and as you push down, kneed it crushing any whole berries you feel. If you keep it on the skins for 2 weeks and do this 2-3 times daily, you will get virtually all of them. The rest will be weakened by the ferment and will press out fine at pressing time.

Ray

That's not necessarily true. Granted, some people might run their crusher like that, but I ran an Ames crusher for years and we adjusted it for each grape variety to the point that it just broke open the grapes. The rollers were never anywhere near close enough to crush seeds. Usually secondary grapes, which are smaller and harder, would pass though whole.

Whole grapes in a red fermentation are cause for concern. Sugar can be trapped within and if the wine gets sulfited before pressing, the sugar can remain.

clyde

Negodki: Roller spacing is usually adjusted based on the size of the seeds(which you do NOT want to crush), not the grapes.

Clyde: That's not necessarily true. Granted, some people might run their crusher like that, but I ran an Ames crusher for years and we adjusted it for each grape variety to the point that it just broke open the grapes. The rollers were never anywhere near close enough to crush seeds. Usually secondary grapes, which are smaller and harder, would pass though whole.

Negodki: Why did you run it that way? Did you purposely want to avoid crushing the secondary grapes, or was the idea to not bruise the fruit any more than absolutely necessary, or to reduce the chances of crushing any seeds?

I've also read recently that roller-spacing won't necessarily prevent seeds from being crushed, since the fluted rollers act like gears (unlike a grain mill, where they are smooth). This was an argument for using soft rubber rollers, which are supposedly less likely to crush the seeds than aluminium or even nylon The argument seems logical, but I've never noticed a problem with "properly" adjusted Aluminium or nylon rollers, so maybe it's just a sales-pitch.

Granted, and yet their are many wineries who do include a certain percentage of uncrushed clusters in their red wine musts. I'm not sure how they avoid the problem you describe. Possibly by fermenting at higher temperatures? Or perhaps they use enzymes?

Why wouldn't this same problem occur with the secondary grapes you mentioned earlier, or was that a white wine crush?

Ray, I am punching down 4 times a day in each barrel (primary fermentor which contains 50 L of must). What I'll do is cruch with my hands the floating berries. I am not equipped to soak 20 days after primary fermentation (don't have a good seal on the containers).

Is it a good idea to add some skins from my batch of Alicante to get more color in my Cab ?

Thx.

I suppose bruise could be a term here, but the concerns voiced to me where more along the lines of excessive maceration (tearing/shreading) which would lead to tannin extraction.

The way this crusher was designed, there was absolutely no chance of crushing seeds. The "flutes" on the rollers were not very well defined and again, the gap between them was always substantial.

I doubt that any of these factors would effect the sugar within a berry and suspect that any winery that purposely included whole berries in a fermentation would be pressing before dryness. We would always adjust the crusher to break all the berries in a red must, where (pre) tannin extraction from macerated skins is not an issue.

In my minds eye I can only picture whole secondaries in white must, with only an occasional exception like Concord, which is routinely not sulfited until sometime after pressing (we just pressed ours out yesterday).

clyde

Hey Ray, Clyde... I take it we're being targeted by this Facial Spa person & his pals. Has this happened before? Sorry about going off topic, but I didn't want to respond to any of Facial Spa comments. I don't suppose there's anything we can do... Darlene

One of the posts had an "abuse" email address in the headers. I forwarded some of the crap to this address and asked them to take action. these were all from that whinery fellow...

beyond that, see if your news reader will allow you to block all messages from a perticular user. I know Forte Agent (not the free one) will..

email: daveallyn at bwsys dot net please respond in this NG so others can share your wisdom as well!

Dave,

Sending a complaint to "abuse@....." rarely results in anything but a form letter telling you they can't do anything unless you send them a copy of the complete email with headers (which you've probably already deleted). If you do send the complete email with headers, they will send you another identical form letter. That's the extent of the "action" they are willing to take, which is why SPAM and other email abuse is such a problem.

Find the originating IP address in the headers and send the guy a virus. Or trace it back to a physical address, and send him something even more convincing.

Those who are using Outlook Express to access the newsgroup can click "Message/Block Sender" while the message is displayed. But, thanks to the interesting logic of M$, the message will still be downloaded, and moved into your "Deleted Items" folder.

Isn't the purpose of leaving whole berries or clusters (when it's intentional) to have them undergo carbonic fermentation, which will give more fruitiness but less alcohol and a wine with less aging potential/requirement? My crushing methods are far from perfect and I often end up with a fair number of uncrushed berries -- but it is very rare that any have any noticeable sugars left in them by the end of even a faster (4 day) fermentation, and I have been assuming that this has been more due to a carbonic fermentation than the yeast.

My understanding has been that the primary reason for aiming for a thorough crush is to have the juice from as many grapes as possible being fermented by the yeast instead of carbonically, thereby creating a less fruity and more ageworthy wine.

Richard

Yes, that is basically the process for carbonic maceration, but the enzyme reaction that occurs within a berry is only capable of consuming about 2% of the sugar. Traditional carbonic maceration calls for completion with a yeast fermentation post pressing.

clyde

I have no experience with adding more skins but it makes sense. You might watch for astringency problems though.

Darlene,

I have been trying to ignore the person as everyone else seems to be. But he does not seem to be taking the message. Don't know what his agenda is but he is a problem.

Ray

I wouildn't reccomend anyone report them.. I just changed my email address as I have been mail bombed every day.. that last count went up to 180. today was another 105 before I changed it....

Now, (while it is a valid email address) this address will not be checked. it will be cleaned out every so often, but that is it... let them fill it up with crap if they want!!! BTW: yahoo filters all those viruses out (so they say!)

email: dallyn_spam at yahoo dot com please respond in this NG so others can share your wisdom as well!

"Mailwasher" is another good one. It allows you to preview all your messages from all your accounts BEFORE downloading them, and then decide whether to delete, bounce, block, or download them. The bounce feature is very useful, because it may make a harrasser or spammer think the address is no longer valid.

And, its great for spotting and deleting viruses while they are still on the server. There's a free version (which will only handle one POP3 account) and and $30 version (which will handle multiple accounts, including hotmail).

Good for you. Did you receive your unhelpful form letter yet? :)

I've gotten over 1300 in the past 48 hours. Glad to hear it's global and not aimed at me personally. So far, I've caught them all, but deleting them takes time too. And they're coming from all over the world, so trying to trace the sender isn't much help.

'Tis enough to drive a winemaker to drink!