gross lees vs. fine lees and when to rack

See

If you're sure it's dead yeast cells and not fruit debris then that would qualify as (desirable) fine lees. (Though certain particulates in (undesirable) heavy lees can take a day to settle.)

If you're sure the existing lees is fine lees, you can just leave it. If not, I'd rack. If you rack, you could always retain the lees and add it back later if you see that the racked wine is low in lees!

Ben

The site on sur lie is very helpful. But I've also got a few lees questions, and have posted photos for a visual. The photos describe my sediment situation better than what I can in writing. The photos may also describe what others are experiencing at this point. I hope what you see will provide enough information to answer my questions.

Go to:

Looking forward to answers and suggestions.

Jeff

The wine above that 2 inches is surely not clear. The stuff suspended in it is the fine lees. Of course there's some of that in the bottom layer too, but trying to separate that from the gross lees is impossible.

In general, I try to rack the wine from the stuff that settles within a couple of hours of pressing. I quarrantine the heavy lees at that point for further settling. After a month or so, I'll rack it and add it back to the main lot or use it for topping if it hasn't developed any off character.

Tom S

I would agree with your assessment. What you label "Fine lees?" in the images would, however, likely consist of a mixture of what would technically be defined as gross *and* fine lees. I would recommend racking to get the wine off all the sediment pictured. The sediment appearing after this racking would certainly be "fine lees". Whether you chose to stir this lees is a stylistic choice - there'd certainly be no harm in doing it. One warning, however, if you are going sur lie in an inert vessel then it would be wise to regularly check the wine since this environment is conducive to causing reductive problems. Stirring (with slight oxygenation) would be wise.

Tom S:

The original post never said it was a 5 gallon batch, but if that's the case I'm with Tom here: it's unlikely that 2 inches of sediment could be classed as fine lees and I'd recommend racking.

Ben

In article , Ben Rotter writes

If I may join in. Gross lees and fine lees are among the many new things about winemaking I have learned from this group, I can understand that a heavy lees of fruit, veg, and or grape debris could begin to decompose and send up bubbles of CO2, thus cause a need of racking.

What I don't understand is why subsequent deposits after the first racking, i.e. fine lees, are classed as desirable. I have always racked off those too as part of the clearing process and to make the wine ready for storage prior to bottling. What does fine lees contain other than dead yeast cells, clearing agents, etc. which is beneficial to the wine? TIA.

The autolysis products of the dead yeast cells are considered to add desirable qualities to the wine aged in their presence. The French anthropomorphize the effect, claiming that "the lees feed the wine".

I've noticed that wines aged "sur lie" seem richer, with better mouth feel and improved integration between fruit and oak.

OTOH, if your objective is crisp, pure fruit flavors you probably do not want to age on the lees.

Tom S

Take what I say as my opinion as it may not match the suggestions of some of those above.

First -- There is no such word as "immediate" in wine making. Drop it from your vocabulary.

What you are describing is certainly gross leas. You will not get 2 inches of fine leas. When you press your fruit some of the meat will pulverize and come through as very tiny particles the stay in suspension as long as fermentation is keeping things stirred up. But you do not have to get the wine off of it immediately. It has been in your wine ever since you started the fermentation and a few weeks more will not hurt anything. If 2 inches have dropped out in a day or so, then there is a lot more that will drop out. If you rack in every day or every few days as more drops out you will loose a lot of wine. Every time you rack you will loose 1/2 inch or so as you need to stop above the sediment.

Leave it alone for 2 or 3 weeks so most of it will drop out. Then get rid of most of the "gross" sediment with one racking and you can let the fine leas that drop out after that set in the wine for another 2 or 3 months. Then when you do your second racking you will be rid of virtually all the sediment and you can start worrying about clearing the wine of particulates that are not settling out that cause cloudiness if there is a problem.

It is true that if you leave the gross leas for several months you can have a problem with H2S. But a few weeks or up to a month is not going to cause a problem. You don't want to end up doing 4 or 5 or more racking, each of which looses wine, when you do not have to.

Ray

In article , Tom S writes

I am grateful for that information, but unfortunately I am unable to unscramble the jargon. Could you please explain it in plain English?

In my sparkling wines it's a sort of creamier taste and feel. Joe

A better plan would be to add ML culture immediately at dryness (after pressing, settling and racking away from the gross lees) and BEFORE you add any sulfite. ML has a tough time going when you're gassing those little bugs with SO2!

Be sure to keep the wine topped up and airlocked during ML, as you won't have the protection of SO2.

BTW, you might find in future that it's a good idea to throw the majority of the wood chips into the fermenter. The flavors meld better that way, and you'd only need to do a small addition later to achieve the desired oak level.

Tom S

I beg to differ with you!

I've seen H2S arise from the lees as early as within a couple of days after pressing. An early racking to get the wine off of the heaviest crud forestalls this problem very easily and effectively. As an added benefit, you can then age the bulk of the wine sur lie - a trend that seems to have become very popular lately among boutique commercial wineries.

If you're concerned with losses, you always have the option to retain the lees for subsequent resettling in a much smaller container.

The point is, dealing with an H2S problem is _much_ harder than simply avoiding it.

Tom S

Jeff, With that small amount of wine and large lees volume, consider centrifuging the lees down to extract as much wine as possible. Tom S had insight on this awhile ago and I've since bought an old clothes washer and hard wired it to spin only. I haven't converted the pulleys to spin faster or remove the brake (much better results would ensue) but an hour or so in the basket (in containers, of course) settles out a significant amount of useable wine to top off after losing so much in the racking operation.

Patrick

Now there's a cool idea. It's a bit late for me to get into it this season, but a 4, 6, or 12 bottle centrifuge would be an interesting concept--although, even though the concept is easy to visualize, I'm wondering about the logistics of engineering such a thing withouth creating an imbalance at high rpm. The bottles would have to be filled exactly or there would be severe speed wobble. Or there would need to be an adjustable balance on the arms to fine tune it.

I'm visualizing something that holds 4 bottles on gimbals, with an electric motor (small), so that the centrifuge allows the bottles to adjust into the horizontal position as the rpm increases. As the motor slows, the gimbals allow the bottls to settle. When rpm is zero, the bottls hang vertical.

Hey, maybe an old ceiling fan motor. Low rpm, for an extended period of time.

I think this could easily become a topic outside this post.

Jeff

"patrick mcdonald" wrote in message news:_Uo_e.17576$ snipped-for-privacy@fe07.lga...

I disagree with that too. The order of weeks can certainly be problematic with regards to reductive problems. Of course, it depends on the turbidity and the size of the vessel, but in some cases H2S can be seen within a week.

Racking isn't solely a process for clarification, oxygen exposure should also be considered. Racking should be conducted with both in mind.

Ben

When yeast cells die they break down, releasing their "guts" into the wine. Some compounds from the "guts" can be beneficial to the wine by, for e.g., providing nutrients for malolactic bacteria, enhancing tartrate stability, modifying flavour, and/or increasing mouthfeel.

Ben

Thanks Tom and Ben. I do not dispute your statements at all and I am sure that what you say is true. I can only say that I have not had a problem doing it the way I stated.

I think it does go to show that winemaking is a total process. Somehow, the total way I make wine has not had this problem where their method has. My method may have other problems that their method does not. Certainly, not every batch I make comes out the way I want it to. I started not worrying about gross leas when I heard about wineries leaving their wine on the skins for 3 to 4 weeks to get maximum color extraction. Other things led to it as well.

Eventually every winemaker must developed an over all method that works for him and, even if a qualified expert says he should do things differently, he should deviate from that method carefully. For this reason I recommend that new winemakers get a good book on winemaking that outlines general procedures and learns from it so he gets a total procedure down rather than trying to learn from this group where he will get bits and pieces of many procedures. He can then get advise from this group and deviate from the procedure in the book until he has developed his own method.

Ray

In article , Ben Rotter writes

Thanks again Ben. Is that malolactic bacteria the same as the one which causes malolactic fermentation [MLF?]

The washing machine tub and sheetmetal enclosure have the advantage of being a reasonably good safety containment vessel in case a bottle lets loose. I'm concerned your ceiling fan model would be a safety concern.... we could nickname it "The Flinger".

Slower rotation speed for a longer period of time will work, but why wouldn't you opt for the washing machine spin cycle speed?

Gene