When to rack a red wine off the gross lees?

David,

I don't think you will get a "Clear" opinion. Everyone has their opinions and I don't know if there is a iron clad "Truth" on this subject. I have already posted my opinion. I rack off the gross lees a day or at most two days after pressing.

Some say this hinders malo lactic fermentation but my reasoning is that the malo lactic you get from NOT racking early MAY be a naturally occuring malo lactic from the culture on the grapes which may or may not be as good as the culture you buy expressly for ML. This is sort of like the arguement of using cultured yeast or the natural yeast on the grapes.

I am sure you are aware that there are nutrients that you can buy for ML. I personally think this is a better approach (early racking and then adding ML and a nutrient) than letting the wine sit on gunk. Also, racking early does not eliminate the finer lees. They are still going to precipitate and be there for you. The fine lees possibly serve as a nutrient for ML and also provide beneficial flavours to the wine. Pressing early also, in my opinion, eliminates much of the risk of stinky wine later on.

IMHO, you are begging two different questions here; should I rack the wine off of the gross lees?, and, When should I start MLF?

I think you raised thee before so I'll risk repeating myself, but here is my $.02 worth;

• If there are a lot of gross lees (as opposed to fine), rack it. You'll reduce the potential of H2S.

• I would argue that you should pitch your ML bacteria back early in the primary fermentation (higher alcohol can inhibit / slow down MLF). But seeing as you haven't yet, I'd recommend getting it in ASAP - regardless of the answer to #1 above.

good luck!

I think the concern here might be that the additional air exposure could stop any MLF from completion, not just natural. I\ve always used ML cultures on my reds and about 1/3-1/2 of the times, the MLF got stuck during pressing and racking from the gross lees, and I had to reinoculate. This typically happens on high alcohol reds, so there is that factor, and there is a lot of air exposure during pressing, so it's not clear whether racking after makes things significantly worse, but it certainly makes the environment more hostile for the bacteria. So it's usually a balancing act, taking into account the sugar levels, how clean the ferment was, when the wine was pressed, etc., all these factor into the decision when to do the first racking. Plus I've switched to a more alcohol tolerant culture that has a better chance of completion in the primary, and the results have been good so far.

One other thing that doesn't apply in this case but that bit me in the past - if the wine is pressed before it's dry and then racked off the gross lees in a matter of days, it can get stuck. As Franco said, I'd let it first go to dryness before any racking, monitoring for off-smells in the carboys.

Pp

Hi Ric,

Primarily, the question was whether to rack off the gross lees (of which there weren't any), so I have left them in the carboys and begun MLF.

There's a lot of fine lees. I was really surprised just how clean 90% of the wine was flowing out of the press (most was hand-pressed). By the time I got to the end, very little gross lees found their way into the carboys.

Pitching an ML early on for Pinot is a stylistic choice. Some say do it early, some day do it once dry, others say wait until after pressing, etc. I've chosen Wyeast's MLF, which seems very tolerant of conditions, alcohol, temperature, etc., and pitched it. From their web site:

Fresh liquid cultures of L. oenos ER1A and EY2D provide rapid and complete malic acid to lactic acid reduction to balance and soften wines. ER1A and EY2D perform well in conditions of low pH and cool cellaring. Typical conditions of high wine acidity can be improved by reducing the harsh, sharp malic acid in the wine to the softer and smoother lactic acid. Other flavor improvements including vanilla and buttery notes can be anticipated. Natural occurring malic acid bacteria on fruit may be of inferior quality or quantity to complete malo-lactic fermentation. Vinter's ChoiceTM malo-lactic cultures are suitable of pH

2.9 or greater and cellar temperatures as low as 55o F."

Thanks,

David

Unless I misread the wyeastlab blurb that you posted, I don;'t think they are laying claim to their ML bacteria doing better than any other in higher alcohol. IMHO, the pitching of MLF earlier rather than later is not so much stylistic as it is practical; ML bacteria are pretty sensitive to their environment; one of those environmental factors is alcohol level. In my own experience MLF happens more quickly, and more consistently thorough, when pitched earlier. When I have waited to after most of the primary fermentation is complete, I have found it takes longer for MLF to complete.

Have you got access to a lab - or a paper chromatography kit? You'll need such when it comes time to verify that the malic acid is gone.

You're right. I was most interested in the fact their cultures work well even down to 55F, something important for those of us carrying out MLF in a cold autumn garage. I have a space heater keeping the place at

65F, and may push it a little further, but this should be good for now.

Yes, you are right about that too. One reason I wanted to hold off on MLF was to see where TA was at following completion of primary ferment. One of the challenges with this batch was the sheer amount of Potassium that upped the pH, which I countered through addition of Tartaric, but which had left me with a TA of about .95%. For the simple reason a lot of variables are at play (and drawing on poor results in prior years when I just threw it all together at once), I wanted to take a little more time this year see each process out to completion, even if that would mean having to wait a little longer than normal for MLF to finish (due to higher alcohol content and lower temperatures).

I've got something a little better.. AccuVin, out of Corvallis, Oregon, produces specific little kits for a variety of tests... free SO2, Malic, Lactic, etc... you take a small sample and soak a test strip, and the resulting color is checked against a color graph. At least for Malic content, I have more faith in this than the chromatography kit, which to me shows a rough relationship of Tartaric to Malic to Lactic, but no specifics.

At the moment I initiated MLF today, Malic was at 300mg/L. All I have to do is take a simple few drops of a sample from each of the carboys to see where MLF is at in each. As soon as the test kit shows it's below 30mg/L, I should be good to go.

I suppose this aspect - chromatography or the AccuVin system - is a matter of preference. For me, it seems AccuVin is more accurate than chromatography, because I'll have some relative numbers to work with, and not have to rely on interpreting the paper to know if there's a lot of Malic left, some, just a little, or none...

Thanks,

David