Viognier Kit Opinions

Wow Ed! I just started a Viogner tonight! Sorry I can't tell you the results yet... I went with the Brew King. I've always made wine the "old fashioned" way with grapes, but couldn't find a supplier for this type here in Oregon, so I went with the kit. This was my first kit, and am very impressed with how easy they are, so far. We'll see. If you don't mind, I'd like to tag a question along with yours. Anyone every do a MLF with Viogner? The kit doesn't contain the MLF culture, so I assume they don't intend the wine to go thru that step. I love the buttery flavor in Chardonnays as a result of MLF, and thought that might be a good compliment to the Viogner. Is it OK to put a wine kit thru MLF? Thad

I have been thinking about pinot noir from a quality kit. The cheapest price is from Presque Isle for their WineArt gold kits. Is Wineart comparable to Brew King or Spagnols? Tim

Thad,

I started with kits, and am moving towards all grapes, but there are varieties I'd like to try that for me are most easily tried with a kit. Everything I've read says that kit juices should not be put through MLF. They are already balanced in terms of acid content, and I believe they contain large amounts of malic acid, so an MLF would leave it very flabby.

Since you usually use grapes, what was your impression of the juice in the BK kit once you added the water? Did it seem to have different varietal characteristics from what you're accustomed to with Chardonnay?

Thanks,

Ed

Thad, do not put a wine kit through MLF. Kits are balanced for acids. Best results if you build it as per instructions. MLF will raise pH too much. Product will be flabby and unstable. Chaptalization is fine if desired. Those comments from a recent conversation I had with Tim Vandergrift of Brew King.

I did the Spagnol's. Twice. I was so disappointed with the first one, I bought a second one, figuring I did something wrong. Same results. Even though both dropped below 0 Brix, they have a cloying candy-like finish. I wanted a nearly bone-dry wine, and having used K1-V on the second, figure that everything that could ferment, did. I figure it's something created in the concentration process, because I pick it up in a lot of kit wines. It didn't jump out at me with varietal character, either. One of them got bottled, and maybe something positive will happen there. The other I might just use for blending.

Brian

Brian,

Thanks for the info - I'm sorry you had two disappointing experiences but I'm glad you're willing to share it. Out of curiousity, how long have these wines aged? I've noticed the same "candy-like finish" on kit wines too, but on the better (read, more expensive) ones I've done it's seemed to diminish and there's more varietal character after about a year.

Ed

"> I did the Spagnol's. Twice. I was so disappointed with the first one, I

Had the opportunity to taste the Kendall Ridge Showcase version done exactly according to specs by the manufacturer. It's a good solid white with decent body and a bit of depth. I would finish it drier for myself, and could see it as an alternative to chardonnay, with less acid and more fruit and none of that dairy-products aftertaste (I'm not a chardonnay fan :))

Les

I guess I'm confused on the purpose of ML fermentation. I understand it is to lower the amount of lactic acid, but why would it leave the wine flabby? Lets say you harvest grapes at just the right time. Everything is balanced. You pitch the yeast and let it go. Then you choose to put the wine thru MLF, sometimes it even happens spontainiously. Wines made fresh don't come out flabby. Why would the kit differ? I'm not trying to argue or say Tim Vandergrift doesn't know what he is talking about. He probably knows everything there is to know about kits, but what is the difference in the acid balance of kits, and how it reacts to MLF? I've put all my Pinot's thru MLF as just a matter of course, even when the numbers look perfect. I've just considered MLF a stylistic aspect of my winemaking. Great, now I'm jinxed. Now that I know they could come out flabby, the next one will! Is the only purpose of MLF to lower acid? The buttery, smooth flavors are just a benificial side affect? I've only tasted one Viognier that had undergone MLF, and it was fantastic. I appreciate the "crisp, fruity" flavor most wineries are trying to retain, but personally, I feel it is a much more enjoyable wine having gone thru MLF.

Ed. Yes, there were very distinct differences between the kit Viognier and fresh pressed Chardonnay's. I cant really say if it was because one is fresh and the other was a kit, but the Viognier smelled and tasted a little "cooked". The Viognier juice was much more aromatic and fragrant. A wonderful juice just to sip. I had to threaten my wife to keep her out of it. The best Chardonnay's could only wish to have half of the depth and character of the Viognier.

varietal

Thanks,

Ed

Les,

Thanks for the feedback. Only problem is I can't seem to find a retailer for this in the US.

Ed

"> Had the opportunity to taste the Kendall Ridge Showcase version done

Thad,

I'm glad to hear that the juice was that yummy - I'm leaning toward the Brewking at this point since I've had good experiences with their kits so far.

Regarding MLF, let me take a stab at answering your questions (I don't claim to be an expert).

Why is it done? The reasons are:

-biological stability - many wines, reds in particular, will undergo MLF naturally at some point, so it's better to induce it and get it done

-flavor profile - the wine will taste softer when the malic acid is converted to lactic acid, and there are by products, like the buttery taste you mention, that many people like

-acid adjustment - MLF is one way to reduce the acidity of a wine that is too acidic

Why would it make a wine flabby? Wines are flabby if they don't have enough acidity. The juice in kits contain a lot of malic acid, and the acid profile is intended to be the acid profile upon completion of the wine for the best flavor. If you converted the malic acid to lactic acid it would reduce the overall acidity and acid profile, so the taste would not be as intended, and most likely flabby because of too little acidity. I guess you could remedy that by adding tartaric acid, but the flavor profile might not be good.

Why would wine made with grapes be different? It isn't, except that it's up to the winemaker to decide what the flavor profile will be. If you've put all your pinot's through MLF and they've come out fine, it's probably because they started out with enough acid, beyond the malic, to taste good after MLF. Like you said, it's a stylistic aspect of winemaking.

I hope that's helpful.

Ed

Don't have the log book handy, but I do know the Viognier comes after last year's grape wine, so it must be less than a year even for the older of the two. As I said, I'm patient, and I'm quite content to do stuff for investigative purposes, even if nothing truly enjoyable comes of it.

As long as my beer turns out. ;-)

Brian

Brian - If you find that the Viognier comes around please let me know - in the meantime, enjoy the beers!

Ed

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Ed:

Any Vineco retailer will be able to order this kit for you. The Kendall Ridge Collection California Viognier is a Limited Edition kit that won't be available until January. Orders MUST be placed by your dealer by the end of December (last year all three KR Collection kits sold out).

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Don't know how Les was lucky enuff to get an advance sample. Maybe when I'm in Ontario for Christmas, my Vineco salesman will be able to arrange something .

Steve

Thanks Steve - I'll check their web site.

Actually, I was wrong, the new one is just coming up on a year old, and the older one is about a year and a half old. Not that it matters anymore, the two got blended so I suppose it is no longer a "vintage wine". ;-)

In any case, I opened a bottle the other night to see how it is developing. It seems to be pleasant enough, there were some honey and citrus aromatics, no apricot. The cloying character seems to be dissipating, so maybe there is hope.

I'm actually thinking of tossing the unbottled carboy into barrel to see what a hit of oak does to it. Maybe blend it with some Chard.

Brian

It sounds like it is coming around, although maybe not as much as you'd like. Happy barrelling!

Ed

"> Actually, I was wrong, the new one is just coming up on a year old, and the

developing.

The real reason to not put a kit through MLF is the possible presence of potassium sorbate. An MLF with traces of that chemical will result in the germanium stink.

Don