TN: A Viognier bargain :)

Voignier on it's own just will not cut it. It's like eating corn on the cob with no butter or salt. I tried a few over the last year or so and I keep getting the same results that I have had with unoaked Chardonnay. Oak is a necessity for these two wines.

Thanks for the notes.

Sean

Sean, Certainly our tastes are at odds here, but I would also caution you about judging Viognier: there is an awful lot of bland, insipid stuff marketed in CA under that grape name. The wine in question is one of a handful I've had from CA (Garretson, Calera, RH Philips being 3 others) that actually got the fruit right.

You're most welcome, Mark Lipton

Sorry Mark, but I agree with Sean to a great extent. Most of the Viognier I've tasted hasn't held a candle to Pinot Blanc, Pinot Grigio, Sauvignon Blanc or Gewurtztraminer - much less Chardonnay. I don't think it's a question of oak; IMO Viognier just isn't as noble a grape. The best I've tasted have certainly been pleasant, but never compelling.

Tom S

A tasting group that I participate in on an irregular basis (because the group gets together on an irregular basis) did a viognier tasting a year or so ago and we found a good bargain in the Yalumba viognier (don't recall what vintage it was). It came in second, slightly behind the best (unfortunately, I don't recall what that one was) but was about half the price of that one. IIRC, all the others were California, but I'm almost certain that none were any of the ones Mark mentioned.

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We'll just have to agree that our tastes don't match here, at least as far as Chardonnay. Unoaked chardonnay doesn't cut it? Personally, I'll take Chablis from Picq, Brocard, or Louis Michel any day. Or Brun's Beaujolais Blanc. Doesn't mean I can't appreciate a Ch. Montelena Chardonnay or a Girardin white Burg (or even a Kistler!), but I certainly wouldn't call oak a neccessity.

As to Viognier, my favorites have been unoaked Condrieus. But when it comes down to it, it's just not my favorite grape. I actually have zero in my cellar, having drunk the last Gilles Barge Condrieu. I always initially love the aromatic floral nose, but when it comes down to it, I drink wine with food, and seldom does Viognier enhance.

Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

You expressed my thoughts regarding viognier exactly, except that I've not sure whether I've ever had an unoaked Condrieu.

What about starting a thread about blending, and sometimes co-fermenting, viognier with syrah? I know that this is often done but most of the time when I tell someone about it, it comes as a surprise to them.

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Vernay and Niero (sp?) are first 2 that come to mind. I think Gilles Barge has a light hand with oak. Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

Well, "often" is probably a slight overstatement. To my knowledge it's only common in Côte-Rôtie, and even there it's on the order of 5% of the blend. I don't think it's done (or allowed) in the other Syrah-centric ACs in Northern Rhone (Hermitage, Cornas, St. Joseph, Crozes-H). Sometimes I get a little floweriness from C-R, my guess is that's what the Viognier contributes. Anyone else with better info? Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

I'll back off from "often" but I'm not certain that its use is inappropriate. I know from personal conversations with individuals I consider highly reliable (including a couple of winemakers) that it is _sometimes_ done in California and Washington. I have less reliable information that it is also (again "sometimes") done in Australia. Co-fermentation is done at least partially for reasons of color. Adding viognier prior to fermentation apparently helps to "fix" (in the photographic sense) the color in the resulting wine. An attempt was made once by an M.W. to explain the chemistry to me. The responsibility for my inability to fully understand it was entirely my own.

Vino To reply, add "x" between letters and numbers of e-mail address.

Hmmm... I can't agree with this statement, either, Dale. When dining with Jean, Ian and Jacquie some years back, I chose a bottle of Condrieu that Ian suggested would go with a scallop hors d'oeuvre. IIRC, all 4 of us agreed that it was a magical combination. I know that Hugh Johnson also recommends pasta scented with truffles as a match, but I've yet to try it. To me, at its best (which it rarely is, alas) Viognier has the body and character of Pinot Gris and the aromaticity of Gewürztraminer. Actually, I would be interested to hear if anyone else has any pairing suggestions for Viognier (Jaybert? Mathew?)

Mark Lipton

Funnily enough, the best pairing I've ever had with Viognier was also with scallops. At Crabtree's Kittle House a half-bottle of Condrieu (Cuilleron?) with an appetizer of scallops in an Asian-influenced (light) cream sauce. I'm not saying one can't find very good matches for Viognier. One can also find good matches for dry Muscats, 15.5% Shirazes, etc. But I tend to buy wines that fit in with (and hopefully enhance) the profiles of the foods I eat the most. So I keep little cellar space for the others.

I prefer wines that go well with a variety of foods- give me GV over Viognier any day. I went on a real Viognier kick a few years ago. Now I probably open 2-3 bottles a year, and that's plenty for me. Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

I'll concede that a good Chablis can be very enjoyable, but IMO the synergy between Chardonnay and French oak is more intense than in any other wine/wood combination. IOW, 1+1=3 (or more). Extended lees contact seems to be essential to make the most of this fusion.

Tom S

Glen Fiona in Washington makes a Walla Walla Valley Syrah that is cofermented with Viognier. They are a small winery that makes all "Rhone style" wines.

Dale M.

:> As to Viognier, my favorites have been unoaked Condrieus. But when it comes :> down to it, it's just not my favorite grape. I actually have zero in my cellar, :> having drunk the last Gilles Barge Condrieu. I always initially love the :> aromatic floral nose, but when it comes down to it, I drink wine with food, and :> seldom does Viognier enhance.

: Hmmm... I can't agree with this statement, either, Dale. When dining : with Jean, Ian and Jacquie some years back, I chose a bottle of Condrieu : that Ian suggested would go with a scallop hors d'oeuvre. IIRC, all 4 : of us agreed that it was a magical combination. I know that Hugh : Johnson also recommends pasta scented with truffles as a match, but I've : yet to try it. To me, at its best (which it rarely is, alas) Viognier : has the body and character of Pinot Gris and the aromaticity of : Gewürztraminer. Actually, I would be interested to hear if anyone else : has any pairing suggestions for Viognier (Jaybert? Mathew?)

Mark L -

like Dale, I've had a good match with viognier and scallops before. The problem with Viognier/Condrieu is manyfold: high prices, no clue to style (richly oaked, high extract or light), a limited shelf life (rarely does it improve in bottle and is best within a few years of vintage). With these strikes against it, why bother with the d'arned grape? Because a well made example reminds one of a day sitting in a garden of jasmine or honeysuckle, like a decadent Southern plantation in springtime. The nose is that quixotic.

Good matches? Trickier, because you need to know what's in the bottle beforehand. I've had a good match with Guigal's 1990 Condrieu and roast chicken, but tell me something that Doesn't go with this roast meat? Scallops are good too, because of their sweet nature. Other shelfish doesn't have the richness, but lobster might work, along with fish stews. While the matches may be few, find one that works and you'll remember this grape and the search will have been worthwhile.

Mark S

LOL!! Well put, Mark [S.]. It shares, with Pinot Noir, that resemblence to the little girl with the little curl... ;-)

This reminds me that someone (probably Hugh J.) advocates the match of Condrieu with bouillabaise. Haven't tried it, though, as I rarely buy Viogniers because of the poor hit/miss ratio. However, at the moment I have 3 waiting to be consumed (another Phelps, Garretson and Arrowood), so I'll have to consider all the options. Fortunately, I know all 3 wines, having tasted each, and they're stylistically similar: big, unoaked and with good acidity.

Thanks, Mark Lipton

I have not had much Viognier in the past few years. I did have some Ch. Grillet in the 70's and 80's and found it greatly overpriced for what it had to offer me. I remember some Guigal Condrieu 1989 that was quite decent and not nearly as expensive as Ch. Grillet.

Does Quipe still make Viognier in California? I had some Quipe Santa Barbara, Los Olivos Vineyard Viognier 1991 in the past. It was rather good, and, as do most of the Santa Barbara whites, it had plenty of acid. Quipe was a small operation then and I had to special order it from a California wine store shortly after it was released.

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I've only had a couple , but Grillet is usually my nominee for most overpriced traditional European wine.

You mean Qupé? If so, they do still make Viognier. Pretty good I think, though north of $20. A slightly less expensive chardonnay/Viognier (mix up those capitals!) blend is ok, too. Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

Yes, I mean Qupe. The price was much lower when I bought mine, but so was the price of most other wines. I have tasting notes for the 89 somewhere, but any unopened bottles likely are much too old now.

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Two good Viogniers that I have enjoyed in the past are Chateau Julian from Monterey County and Horton from Virginia and I am sure they are both cheaper than Qupe.