Wine shipping law overturned!

Hi Rob and all, Probably nothing unless we start a letter writing campaign. Letters are better than email. I went to the internet and found the names of the COO and CEO of UPS. And coorp addy in Georgia. Am formulating in my mind the letter. Of course, there will be the one I send and the one I would like to send. Great. Now I can ship to my step brother in VA but not by UPS. I was thinking on something. Could a winery ship my wine for me? JAM

Are you confusing UPS ("Brown") with USPS (United States Postal Service .. i.e "snail-mail")?

We have no problem shipping wine from our winery using Brown! It is still (and probably always will be) illegal via USPS.

As for the ruling ... YIPEE!!!! ... about TIME!!!

Charlie

JAM wrote:

Letters

Oops ... sorry for the post, I didn't notice the prior thread on "homemade" wine!

Is it certain this is a UPS "corporate" policy, or just some local weenee making things up on a power trip?

I know there are some services a local UPS shipper can or cannot provide depending on whether they have a "terminal" or not. Like process the "adult signature" add-on charge which is required for shipping wine.

Charlie

Charlie, I talked with several people at UPS and they confirmed that this was a policy change by corporate and it was effective April 5, 2005. I tried to talk to someone in legal to get the reason for this decision but they were not able to give me a reason for this change. USPS has never allowed wine to be shipped with them. We REALLY need to do a letter campaign about this to UPS. JAM

The UPS rule seems only to apply to individuals. If you check their website it says that licensed dealers and wineries can ship. I suppose it's some kind of liability issue.

--arne

A flood of letters to UPS corporate might irritate them enough. But I suppose that's when the secretaries screen, and keep the mail room shredder plugged in.

Even so, failing the above, I'm thinking several hundred simultaneously submitted letters to the editorial staff at CNN might give the topic honorable mention. Definitley off-the-wall. But it's the price of a stamp and a half hour on a word processor. What a zap to UPS to get our beef mentioned on Good Morning America.

Most of the time we just sit around and stew about it. Bit of brain storming never hurt the situation, even if it is ludicrous.

Jeff

Ok - so what's the e-mail address for Good Morning America?

Dick

Well, if anyone is really serious about it, you can log onto

Click on NEWS TIPS. However, after reading the blurb on that page, you'll see it's likely the email will be deleted. Unless, of course, they received hundreds of emails from hundreds of home winemakers, all with the same subject line. An attention grabber.

A stampede of related emails gets more attenti>

It is pretty important that you all understand if you are a home winemaker and NOT a bonded winery you may NOT ship your wine to anyone period. The Federal law is very clear about "personal consumption". So the answer is, no you can't ship it to your brother in law via any carrier. For bonded wineries; both Fedex and UPS will take your shipments. It is illegal to ship alcohol through the US post office.

Circle S Vineyards

Please explain how the "personal consumption" part comes into play. Is it meant that we can only make wine outside of bonded wineries if its for our own personal consumption, and therefore shipping would suggest that it wasn't for our own personal consumption? If so, what about sending it ahead to my brother-in-law (or anyone else that meets this description) in advance of my visiting that person?

Rob

My brother shipped his homemade wine for Christmas two years ago. Somehow it got here, and in one piece (Florida to Wisconsin). I was amazed - he even packaged it in a box from one of those wine kits and since he didn't use any packaging stuff, you could easily tell it was bottles of something. Knowing him though, he's clueless.... Darlene ;o)

Dave, according to Philip M. Wagner's 'Grapes Into Wine' on page 132 (footnote) home winemaking is considered a civil liberty under the Constitution. And according to Juliuus H. Fessler's 'Guidelines To Practical Winemaking' page

103, Chapter 13, "Total permissible production is up to 200 gallons per year for: 1. The head of a family household of more than one person; 2. The permit holder living with _his_ family; 3. Family use." 1.) I'd like to see a definition of 'Family use'. 2.) I would dearly love to see 'FLee' Bailey debate the sexist wording of item #2.

And, finally, according to the University of California Cooperative Exyension Division of Agriclture and Natural Resources Publication 21434 "Making Table Wine At Home" page 41, of the actual Federal Law, effective date: February 1, 1979, 240.540 (a) "Any adult may produce wine, without payment of tax, for personal or family use and not for sale." Also; 204.541 REMOVAL OF WINE "Wine made under 240.540 may be removed from the premises where made for personal or family use including use at organized affairs, exhibitions or competitions such as homemaker's contests, tastings or judging."

1.) I repeat, please define 'Family' 2.) define 'tasting'

Home winemakers make a perfectly LEGAL product. We are NOT bootleggers. We are NOT taking business away from any wineries. We ARE being treated like second-class citizens. The decision by UPS is capricious and discriminatory. There is no liability with homemade wine. Period. Joanne

Hiya Rob,

I'll try to explain.

The law says that you can make up to 200 gall for your personal consumption. You are correct that sending it to your brother in law would suggest it was not for your personal consumption. The wording of the Federal law is a bit broad in this area. An example, if you went by the EXACT wording of the law you could have some friends over for dinner and open a bottle of your wine, however you couldn't let them have any. That wouldn't meet the exact wording of the law. Pretty strange huh?

Do a search on federal wine laws and you'll come up with a copy of the law. It makes very interesting reading.

Dave Circle S V>Please explain how the "personal consumption" part comes into play. Is

Joanne -- nice to see you around! -- and being rational in a reaction to a silly system. I am off for a while!

Dave, according to the printed law as found in the University of California Cooperative Extension Division of Agriculture and Natural Resources, Publication 21434, "Making Table Wine At Home", page 41, (AND I QUOTE) "PART 240-WINE Subpart Y-Tax-Free Production Wine for Personal or Family Use"

1.) Please note the _OR_ between "Personal" and "Family"! 2.) You are right, it does make for interesting reading. It proves that Home Winemakers are being treated like second-class citizens by corporations who make capricious decisions. Joanne

Hi Joanne,

You are totally right..... Notice how the writing of the law seems to be written in such a way that it is vague and not overly specific.

Speaking from a commercial winery standpoint; I agree home winemakers don't effect our business at all (actually we have many home makers as customers). So maybe they help our business. :-)

I jumped in on this thread because I saw the post about shipping wine to a brother in law. Would anything happen in reality? Probably not. Yet I wouldn't want to be the one who tested the system to find out.

Dave Circle S V>Dave,

Dave, OK, the question now becomes; if I (who live in New Mexico) can make a batch of strawberry jam (a legal product) and send my brother-in-law (pick another state) a jar via UPS, Why can't I send him a bottle of homemade wine (also a legal product). Within New Mexico it gets worse. I can send my friend in California a bottle of wine but God forbid I send my friend who lives in southern New Mexico a bottle of wine! According to the laws in NM as hijacked by distributors it is illegal for me to ship a bottle of homemade wine within the state. There is no reason for distributors to exist! Wine is a legal product. Joanne

LOL

It all seems so logical doesn't it? Rule #1 follow the money. Rule #2 Don't be logical.

One of the things you fail to see is that your bottle of wine is NOT a legal product for anyone but YOU. You can legally produce it for yourself but NOT for anyone else. Ya gotta have a license for that. Remember rule #1? No license, no tax dollars collected. No tax dollars collected, then you're going to be very restricted on how, what, where, etc you can make.

Just remember wine is legal product when both federal and state taxes have been collected on it. Home made wine is a whole other thing. Its ok and legal to make it for you, but someone else is a "no no" and illegal.

Totally confused yet? As they would say in Texas, "You aint seen nothing" We had to hire an alcohol lawyer to help us through the maze of fed & state laws that apply to commercial wineries. You just wouldn't believe it.

Dave Circle S V>Dave,

Dave, o, I understand all the illogic of it all. It's just my position that wine is a legal product. Period. I see no reason for distributors to exist. And I see no reason for corporations to make capricious decisions........ Joanne