Pu-Erh: what's really in it

Hi Miachael,

I won't bet on that though, Starbucks latte in Beijing tastes terrible as compared to one I get in NYC, and frappaccino has ice bits you can crunch on. Starbucks needs to work on their Beijing office! :")

Sorry, I think they did better, they sent it to Taiwan and told them it's rare...haha!

Hmm, I still don't like the smell of clean earth, there's a smell that some chinese pu'er lovers call 'water' - I guess the closest association I can give that is the smell of the air after a heavy rain. A good pu'er shouldn't smell like that, it should smell like a good well kept old book, like when you open the book and smell the pages, and it smells of clean crisp paper...my fetish...haha!

I take it that you mean the liquor? New uncooked Pu'er will yield a greenish yellow liquor, and as it ages, the liquor will turn into a darker yellow, and probably lightly amber, but never opaque. I understand that - though I've yet tasted one - when the uncooked pu'er gets past its optimal age, the liquor will begin to turn pale, in reverse order. Fresh uncooked pu'er will take on an astringent and sharp taste, and many people find it awful, with the exception of the locals in Yunnan, who mostly prefer to drink fresh new uncooked pu'er over the cooked or aged variety. So many people keep the uncooked pu'er over a period of time. Some factories do not print their production date on the uncooked pu'er, so the age is often determined by the 'trained' eye of a pu'er expert. It is generally accepted that uncooked pu'er needs about 5 years of proper oxidation before it can be consumed, and the older it is, the better. There's however, no agreement on when is the optimal age though. Lab tests in Taiwan and China on 100 odd year old pu'er showed that the tea's healthy properties are only in traces in these century old pu'ers.

For cooked pu'er, the liquor should never be opaque either, but a light to dark amber. Dark opaque liquor usually means a) brewing too much leaves, b)overbrewing, c) new cooked pu'er, d) cooked pu'er of a lower quality, Wet stored pu'er is a trick employed by dishonest makers to make a quick turnover on the pu'er to meet the increasing demand. I've not come across any lab reports on it and how it may affect us, I'll post it if there are any reports.

Interesting. This is the first time I've heard about this. From what I know, read and been told, pu'er 'mellows' with age, there's no mention that pu'er will go through an adolescent 'angst'.

Samar

samarkand4163dd71$ snipped-for-privacy@news.starhub.net.sg10/6/04 07: snipped-for-privacy@uk2.net

snip snip snip

Yes.

That's interesting. I can't afford to drink a Pu-erh of that age, but I did once buy a lousy example of a 50 year old Pu-erh (from Rishi tea) whose liquor color is indeed rather pale. Maybe this was in fact an example of what you are describing. The leaf quality is quite poor.

I've tried new ones whose tastes are in fact gentle yeast-fruit-flowery, complex, and giving. So, a really well made new one of good breeding can deliver a lovely tea. And when they age they will be worth their weight in gold.

I've had some very nice 1999's. So, the 5 year mark might be just about right.

Could you link us to, or otherwise provide, that information? I would like to read *anything* about 100 year old Pu-erh.

It has been my experience that Pu-erhs that produce an opaque black liquor do so rather quickly, after a short steep time. They are usually soft in taste, and not too interesting, although not particularly unpleasant either. [Michael on youthful Pu-erhs]

We'll just have to keep our eyes and noses out.

Another question: Is the age of the Pu-erh, as revealed through examnation of the coloration of the dry cake, relative or absolute? That is, is it possible that one cake will mature more or less quickly than another, moving through the color stages therefore more or less quickly? And if so, does this impact on the quality of the tea?

Jump in here, other mavens and mavenettes.

Michael

I don't think I've even drank any pu'er of that age! The closest I've drunk, according to its owner, is a 40 year old cake. Question: you mentioned that the leaf quality is quite poor, how do you determine that?

Are they uncooked or cooked? Spread them out and sample them over the next couple of years, I'm sure they'll get even better!

I'm not sure if Mike Petro's site has any info on this, the other links I'm giving here are of chinese websites:

I don't think anything's absolute when the age of a Pu'er is determined through aural examination of the cake, unless it comes with more evidence (factory's inner flyer which includes the date - rare, or date of manufacture on the wrapper, etc) then can only one make a better estimate on the age. So I'll go with relative. It is possible for two cakes of the same manufacture date to age differently, the storage area, the handling of the cake, etc, will contribute to its ageing process. On the other hand, an old chinese tea saying goes that Pu'er is a social cake, meaning that for the cake to mature nicely, it has to be kept with other Pu'ers, so they can all age gracefully. How does that come about I have the faintest idea, I suppose there must be some symbiotic relationship somewhere.

Samar

samarkand4164087d$ snipped-for-privacy@news.starhub.net.sg10/6/04 11: snipped-for-privacy@uk2.net

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Easily. When the chunk of the cake falls completely apart in the water after several steepings, it shows as twiggy, stemmy, ratty, with small bits of leaf. Others show whole leaf, sometimes small sized leaves, which would indicate a higher quality.

Both. Mostly uncooked. I will do that, of course.

OK. Thanks. I'll use Babelfish as my translator. I can't do better than that right now.

snip

The reason undoubtedly is that a merchant, when selling you a really expensive Pu-erh cake, can convince you to buy another as a companion for the first. (So you would go with the relative theory too. It makes sense.)

Michael

That too. Might as well add rice vinegar to the list, as long as we're at it.

Light, dark, mushroom -- you name it. Mind you, these prejudices don't reflect my own opinions. I'm merely portraying those of my Japanese friends.

What exactly do you find so baffling about soy sauce for sushi? As for tempura, soy makes up only one component of the standard dipping sauce. Bonito/katsuo stock forms the base.

--crymad

Wow - I once did a seminar on "listening" to Japanese incense, but never encountered this concept of listening to tea. Nice synaethesia. Perhaps it complements on the stuff we read about qualifying Yixing pots according to their tone.

-DM

Dog Ma 1wW19d.672103$ snipped-for-privacy@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net10/6/04

Yesterday, I drank a tea that spoke to me.

Is mushroom an ingredient for soy sauce?

I'm baffled because I get the normal soy sauce for sushi, then the soy mixture for the tempura, and there's the soy mixture they laddle over tempura don, which is sweeter, and there's one Japanese meal I had in Sendai where the meals are served in small dishes, each with an accompanying soy sauce mixture for each dish. I thought they were all the same, though the proprietor said it's not.

Chinese rice is stinky? That's interesting.

Straw mushrooms, as a flavoring. Pearl River Bridge makes a well known mushroom soy sauce.

Outside of raw fish and sushi, plain soy sauce is rarely served alongside Japanese dishes. I infer from your comments in the previous post that you are Chinese. If so, what are your thoughts on raw seafood?

Long grain rice in particular. Japanese simply can't abide it.

--crymad

Love it, and I like my dip to be a thick paste made with little soy sauce and lots of wasabi - I think the Japanese prefer it to be little wasabi and lots of soy sauce?

Generally. But apply>Examples of the Chinese fondness for foods from the deadside abound: >

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this.

--crymad

Hey guys, please don't hit me. My Japanese friends of years ago told me that Sushi is better in the United States than in Japan because the fish is fresher here. This struck me as odd, but I've never been to Japan, so how am I to know. Think there might be truth in it?

Drinking SRT 2002 Silver Bud Beencha, which shows great promise for the future, but right now, brewed heavy, is like drinking a cigar, while brewed light, is quite gentle and vegital. Listening to Stephan Volpe's Music for Any Instruments, which is likewise an acquired taste perhaps.

Michael

snipped-for-privacy@xprt.net/7/04 18: snipped-for-privacy@xprt.net

Years ago, that was probably true.

I have been to the US and didn't see any fresh fish for sale in most neighbourhoods. But well, in New-York, you live differently.

Now, in Japanese cities the choice of fresh and very fish is huge. Maybe that's too much as we're wasting and contributing to the global ecological disaster. I only miss the urchins, oysters, real crabs and a few others seafood (here, most times, they *unshell* oysters and urchins before shipping, that's awful).

Anyway, originally, sushi was a way to preserve fish. Osaka-style sushi are still made of no-longer-fresh vinegared fish, they are like roll-mops laid on rice (that used to be thrown away). Also because of a sort of worm, a number of species of fish are frozen before being prepared for sushi (in Japan, it's common practice, in a number of American states, it's illegal to do otherwise). As tea protects me, I still eat unfrozen raw fish without fear.

Kuri

As Kuri says, perhaps in times past. I've eaten several times my body weight in sushi in Japan, and much more in the US. I can remember the one time I had sushi in America (Ike-no-Hana, somewhere around San Jose) that was in the same league as the better Japanese offerings. And the best I had over there (Nishimoto in Osaka, and a few places around the Tsukiji fish market) was in a completely different league. There is mediocre sushi in the Japan, as at the bars where it floats by on little boats and ages un-gracefully, but not much.

Ironically, most of the main item - bluefin tuna - comes from Boston. We can't even buy real chutoro and o-toro here; it all goes to Japan. Imperialists stripping the wreck of this once-mighty fish-eating nation. And half the catch is packed by Moonies, but that's another story.

-DM

I have to inject that seafood on the west coast is typically better than east coast. A japanese friend told me Sea Urchin was much better in America in terms of quality of fish. I think it is difficult to compare sushii without getting variables crossed. Certainly in Japan it is easier to find someone who can expertly prepare sushi, but I've heard also that fresher fish is available on the West coast than in Japan.

Steve

You'll have to excuse Michael. Living in the Center of the Universe can cloud your vision. No doubt, good Japanese food can be found in NY.

My only real longings living in Japan were oysters and line-caught river salmon. Other than that, Japan is a fish paradise. It's sanma season now, isn't it, Kuri? I always looked forward to autumn and grilling skewered sanma over hardwood charcoal outside.

--crymad

Perhaps San Francisco has a good bounty. But I live in Portland and have lived in Seattle, and truly fine fish so common all over Japan is difficult to find in both cities. Then again, I'm partial to whole, small fishes, not the ubiquitous steaks of halibut or swordfish or tuna.

--crymad

Very true. I always like wasabi, that's the reason I make my side sauce thick with it, but my dip is always on the corner of the meat, never fully soaking the food with the sauce - it's quite potent even with the little touch, and I like it that way.

Every culture has its preference for food from the deadside abound, I don't think Chinese have a larger repertoire of it. Similarly, I don't think Chinese nowadays are particularly fond of such food. In the past, these food was borne out of necessity, which in turn may have become delicacies in certain cases (such as the sea cucumber); but these days the Chinese economy is getting more affluent and fresh food is easily available and within affordable expenditure, so these preserved food is taking a backseat, and often appear during the wintry months on festive ocassions - just for old time's sake.

In your example of the sea cucumber, I presume Japanese's preference on eating it raw is to savour its freshness? I've yet to eat that though. Chinese have a wider use for dried sea cucumber, with an interesting history. Using sea cucumber in Chinese cuisine is a recent development, during the Qing dynasty. It began, of all places, in Sichuan, where fish merchants carried it along with the other sea produce from the coasts, via Shangdong. Needless to say over such long journeys these items were first dried before embarking on its long journey inland. The Sichuan people used it as a source of protein in the long wintry months and as medicine in food to treat pre-mature ejeculations, impotency, and other 'man' problems; this practice spread later west and south wards. Till today, one doesn't see dried sea cucumber in supermarkets, but mostly available in medicinal halls. Being dried in the past means the medicinal halls could sell it all year round, instead of making a seasonal produce.

Likewise for dried citrus peel, they are peeled and sliced for medicinal use in food, to treat high blood pressure, dry coughs, insomnia. Chinese believe that the citrus peel of citrus tangerina (available only in season in the past) is a great nourishment to the lungs and spleen, hence the old saying that whenever the citrus is in seasn, the doctors are busy in drying the peels. Peels that are fresh are too sharp, for people with phlegmy coughs this might bring on more phlegm. When it is dried, its properties are not so harsh, and there's a tangy sweetness to it which makes it excellent to be included in food to enhance the flavours, while benefitting the body.

I'm not saying that Chinese have every use for dried stuff from the 'deadside' as a medicine, there are also a lot of which are based in history and necessity, from a race of people who have witnessed great calamities both man-made and natural for them to make greater use of the food resource that they have at hand. At least, the deadside preference of Chinese do not include a large variety of processed food.

Japanese also have a repertoire of deadside food, we are not that different after all: Natto (I love, my friends hate it), aonori, umeboshi, miso, konbu, hijiki, bonito, pickled baby octopus, pickled cuttlefish, preserved roes, etc. Yummy!

Samar

Splendid! Any recommendation of a good Japanese restaurant? I only know of 'East' which is on 54th on 8th (I think...)in Manhattan...and it is not as good as the ones I've had in San Francsico.

When is the 'pregnant fish' season? I like that, it's a string of small fish skewered on a piece of stick with lots of roe inside. I don't even know its name in Japanese...