Is preserved food in Chinese cuisine really just a holdover from more rugged times? How do you explain the near absence of fresh black mushrooms (shiitake) in classic Chinese dishes when dried ones are employed extensively?
Yes, but dried tangerine peel is by no means limited to medicinal uses in China. It is a staple in Sichuan and Fujian provinces as a seasoning.
And where does Puerh fit in this discussion? Is this another holdover from China's less affluent times? More interestingly, is Puerh viewed as an anachronism by younger, contemporary Chinese?
Natto was brought up as a counterexample the first time this topic came up. Natto is not an old food. From fresh beans to sticky natto takes only 24 hours, and it is highly perishable, always stored under refrigeration.
The dried seaweeds you mention are also eaten in their fresh state, however. Pickled octopus/squid are not truly pickled or preserved -- they are stored refrigerated and easily subject to spoilage. Umeboshi is a better example. But bonito (katuso) is better still, even more so seeing as this dried fish flesh forms the foundation for Japanese cuisine.
Well, I live near SF, CA and I haven't seen anything like it (the Greater Bay Area) for Sushi in my travels to other states.
Now my travels have been all over but I must admit I didn't really indulge deeply in sushi when on such journeys, so with a pinch of salt over the shoulder I continue.
Partly there was the DOT COM bubble bursting which put a great crimp on all kinds of entertainment economy, including eating out and singles/ bachelor lifestyles; sushi restaurants included. Things are just now seeming to turn around, around here, but in a way, while hard on folks, it had the effect of shaking out the industry and good places tend to survive. (But not always.)
_That_ said I wanted to pass along a link to a place I found just surfing around. I haven't tried them yet, nor do I have any ties to them, but here ya go:
They mention being able to mail order little fishies to your doorstep, including Uni, a favorite of mine if fresh and high quality.
ANYwho, I do know that the West Coast; SF & perhaps LA, enjoys a large Asian (Japanese) contingent which, who along with those yuppies [and post yuppies], have been driving the market to encourage high quality and wide ranging spectrum of sushi offerings.
If you take a look Chinese cuisine in the recent decades, fresh mushrooms are used, especially the straw mushrooms you mentioned. Dried mushrooms become abundant in China during the wintry months, but farther south in Hainan island, Hongkong, Taiwan, Singapore and Malaysia, fresh shiitake mushrooms are available all year round and frequently used in cooking instead of the dried version. Dried mushrooms are still used in certain dishes however, because it imparts a stronger flavour, and in my opinion, imparts a nicer flavour especially when used mixed with minced pork and steamed. Fresh shiitake doesn't give that 'punch'. I believe out of necessaity during rugged times, it has evolved into a cuisine preference. Another example is steamed fish with dried shiitake. It tastes much better than when I use the fresh variety.
What are the classic Chinese dishes that you've eaten using dried shiitake recently? And where? Food and location can sometimes reveal interesting cultural roots...
Is it used as a staple? You must show me where you get this info. I can't tell for sure it is a staple seasoning in Sichuan, but in Fujian it doesn't appear so, perhaps you meant Guangzhou? In Chinese traditional medicine, the line between food and medicine can be thinly drawn. Often in our cuisine, the seasoning and ingredients can be both food and medicine. While citrus peel is being used in food, it acts both as a seasoning while it strengthens the spleen and lowers blood cholestrol.
Returning to the sea cucumber, to the Japanese it is a delicacy to be eaten fresh, but to the Chinese, it is enjoyed as a food, but also to help pre-mature ejeculation, in a sense, it is both food and medicine.
Pu'er is completely a different story. You mentioned that we have a preference for the deadside, if tea is from the deadside, then Pu'er as viewed by you, is of the deadside, but I don't view it that way. From what I remember when I first read this group's posts on Pu'er, you seem to have a view that this is not tea, but tea tortured to its last spirit. I've always wanted to ask you where and how do you come to this opinion, but that thread was deleted and I couldn't find it.
I remember also you disagreed with Mike Petro on some points of Pu'er as a tea, but I lost track with the multitude of threads, I only remember some discussions on cheeses and wines [?] in relation to Pu'er. Can you refresh me on that one?
To answer your questions, is Pu'er another holdover from China's less affluent times? The answer is no. It has nothing to do with that portion of history, but I suspect your bad experiences with Pu'er may have everything to do with greedy Chinese trying to make quick bucks, turning out low quality teas...and is Pu'er viewed as an anachronism by younger, contemporary Chinese? I take it that you meant mainland Chinese, where half the young population of China knows more about Starbuck than Chinese teas in general? Then the answer is perhaps yes, but becuase tea in general is viewed as an anachronism and 'un-western', not just Pu'er. For the rest of the Chinese around the world, we have the Hongkongers and Taiwanese to thank, who took the humble Pu'er and turned it into black gold, leaving us like poor street urchins salivating at the window displays of expensive and out-of-reach pu'er cakes.
Incidentally, the idea of pu'er as 'the older the better and good to keep till kingdom comes' is a recent import, post 1980s. Most Yunnan natives still favour freshly produced Pu'er, most of them keeping it for several years to allow the tea to wear off its greeness and sharpness.
Many developments of tea-making in history came about from mishaps, and unintentional. I remember Ripon posted something about the history of red tea (Keemun? ) in China. I read it and found it incorrect, but it was deleted and I couldn't locate it to reply him.
I had some tonight. I had to make them inside, skewered in the oven...but I've used a brasero to prepare new rice and matsutake. No leftovers, the plates and bowls are perfectly cleaned ! It's a good year for fruits in addition. Lots of excellent kakis, nashis (usually I find them tasteless, but not this year) and wonderful apples for an old style tart that perfectly matched a Taiwan oolong. My guest promised me to bring me some more from Taipei ! That's a good trade for me, tarts versus tea.
Singapore and Malaysia? I think we're veering a little off the map now. It bears mentioning, though, that while Korea and Japan are much farther north, fresh shiitake are commonly used in their fresh form.
In my mind, this desire for "punchiness" is at the heart of the matter, really. Japanese cuisine emphasizes freshness and delicacy. And the ideal for tea follows suit.
In simple soups, Chinese style, here at home, in the US. Sometimes I'll add dried shiitake to MaPo Tofu.
Hmm...now I wonder about your cultural roots. What are they exactly? Because any Chinese should be familiar with dried tangerine peel.
"Tortured to its last spirit" -- I do like this. A very poetic way of putting it.
I believe the thread had the subject line, "Is Puerh Tea?" You should be able to locate it at Google groups.
Like any Japanese should get a stock of dried yuzu peel from Koya-san and use some daily in shichimi mix ? And in the US, I guess you are familiar with pemmican (sp ?) and if you didn't have any for breakfast, we can start doubting you're really posting from there.
Really Crymad, I don't know where you're getting at. It is sure that the Japanese enjoy abundant supply of all sorts of fresh products, while most Chinese still can't afford them out of season and survive a part of (if not all) the year with dried/preserved goods. They just do what they can. I am not commenting "Chinese cuisine", because that's be like commenting "Mediterraneano-european cuisine", you'd have to do it region by region and even separate the different communities in one city. The Japanese have had most of their meals prepared from dried/preserved food during hundreds of years, fresh seasonal products were worshipped for they were exceptional, people only started to change their habit about 70 yrs ago. And they have not all forgotten the old style. The dried food stands at my local market still sells in quantity a variety of dried food as large as in most Chinese medicinal markets I've been to. Other stands have enough sorts of tsukemono to avoid you the boredom of eating twice the same in one year. I also love the choice of stock fish and shiokarai. Probably New Year's osechi-ryori is a good example of how they cooked before having fridges and, more important, before having roads and trains to deliver fish to every valley and vegetables to every seaside village. Maybe that was not your cup of tea, but now that the fascination for fresh takkyubin is wearing off, soshoku style ("simple meal" that inspired macrobiotic diet) is getting a revival, and it uses a lot of preserved/dried goods. Also the different fermented food,lactofermentation, etc, are getting increasingly popular (so maybe the taste for Puer cha is related to that). It is the Japanese contribution to the global "slow food" trend. I wouldn't get much interest for Japanese cooking if that was limited to cutting fresh ingredients and making a nice presentation.
Later I'll post something about the history of Japanese tea-snacks as that's more related to this NG, and well "freshness" is certainly not their strength.
Why should that be? You mentioned Chinese cuisine, not specific geographic locational cuisine, is it? Chinese cuisine in USA would be equally if not more different than Singapore, Malaysia, Hongkong, Taiwan, or China. Korea is farther north, and they are famous for its ginseng which is preserved in honey, even though they used it for cooking. And of mushrooms, have you walked through the wet markets? It's full of dried mouth-watering mushrooms. Although I like Korean cuisine, walking through their wet markets can be a browse for one of those 'fear-factor' food!
Simple soups? Chinese soups are not simple...is there a difference if you add fresh shiitake mushrooms to MaPo Tofu? Waitaminit! I don't think mushroom is an ingredient in the original recipe! Does it taste better with mushrooms or without?
Haha, before you verify my cultural roots, you'll have to verify your statement about tangerine peel as a staple food in Chinese cuisine. Guangdong cuisine uses tangerine peel often in dessert dishes and medicinal food preparation, seldom as a common staple. The northern cuisine uses it even less. Sichuan cuisine uses it most perhaps, especially in spicy dishes. Just as Japan will have its various provincial cuisine, so does Chinese. You cannot be generalising it now, can you?
Hey, I thought that was your line...no?
I shall hunt for it then. But I doubt it's still around though.
It's interesting to know a portion of Japanese cuisine history, am I correct to say that while Japanese stresses a lot on the freshness of the food, it also uses a lot of MSG in food preparation?
Samarkand also seemed puzzled with the mushroom soy reference a few posts above. Samarkand may in fact be Chinese, but just doesn't cook much.
Well, this thread has kind of drifted off a bit. Originally, it was about Puerh and how its preserved, aged flavor reminds me of so many other Chinese foodstuffs.
Samarkand does, but there's is no straw mushroom soy sauce in chinese cooking, not that I know of.
I don't assume I know every soy sauce available in the market, but I think you are going too far in assuming that I do not cook or that I MAY only be Chinese just because I'm not familiar with a type of soy sauce that you can find in wherever you are. I believe I have been quite civil in replying to your queries, please don't make me think you are just a loud mouth westerner who has a larger than life image of himself and the culture he basks in, and poorly of others.
You are correct that we have strayed too far from the subject, so I shall not continue further.
Okay you Asian Iron Chefs what is that dry yellow blob in moon cakes? My favorite Chinese greasy spoon Buck-A-Scoop. You get to pick from
10 stir frys, noodles,rice,soup,pot stickers only a George Washington for each. Mainly carry out but some tables. Our latest sushi trend McSushi. Instead of bars and chefs it is house saki + prepared for a buck each ala dim sum. I wished I could find two places like this next to each other.
Here's a supplier in China, with all the contact information:
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Your email address suggests you live in the UK. If so, you can find mushroom soy at Hoo Hing:
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You're overreacting a bit now. I asked you repeatedly about your cultural origins, but you remained coy. Speculation using the clues you provided was the only option, really.
Usually made from lotus seed paste, there are 2 types: white and usual lotus seed paste. In the recent years many other ingredients have also been used as fillings, from colour to ice cream!
The dry yellow blob in moon cakes, I think you meant the duck's egg yolk. Traditionally, duck yolk is used as the centre filling, to balance the over-sweetness of the paste. The paste itself is mixed with lard to give it a smoother texture, but in the recent decades with the alarm raised on high cholestrol and healthy eating, this is discarded, and vegetable oil used instead. To make the mooncake available to vegetarians, the yolk is replaced with coloured lotus paste.
I don't think the rice is stinky- but Pu-erh is stinky. It makes me feel better when I have a cold, but it still tastes and smells like poo. Having a respect for many aspects of Asian culture (I'm not Asian) doesn't stop me from thinking that Pu-erh is stinky, that natto is like snot and smells worse, and that I'd probably rather eat ground glass than kimchee.
This is quite simple. There are individuals who understand the way people get insulted and there are ones that do not. Usually its their parents who were the same way and never wanted to improve. I have seen people who would look at their companion's plate in the restaurant and say - this is awful, how can you eat that? And they do not mean anything insulting, they just were never brought up the proper way. They would also stare at a paraplegic person, pick their nose in public and belch when they have eaten enough. Yes, they probably understand the improperness of passing wind in the presence of others, but that is as far as their upbringing goes. The simple rule that you never use the words "stink, awful, yuk, etc" speaking about food that others eat and admire, never call "ugly, awful or terrible" things that people wear - is too sophisticated for them. There are many ways to express your personal rejections for certain foods, styles and many other things - you can say that this scent is a bit too rough for you, that you have never developed a taste, etc. But their childish minds find it easier to just compare things they do not like to snot and poo.
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