Re: infusion confusion [HTML]

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Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > Everytime I read steeping recommandations for green teas, they don't = > make > sense. They seem highly illogical to me. Here's how I understand it : > > Tannins, astringent substances present in tea leaves, are disolved into > water. The quantity released depends on steeping time, water = > temperature, > and the variety of tea. > > If you brew a green tea for too long, in a too hot water, it will taste = > bad > because to much tannins are released, in proportion to other desired > subtances. The desired substance are released much faster than the = > unwanted > tannins. Therefore, most green teas acheive a peak in "good tasting" > chemicals, without releasing too much "bad tasting" tannins, in less = > than > 120 seconds. > > > concentration > + > + g g t t > + g t g t > + g t g t > + g t g t > + g t g t > +++++++++120s++++++++240s++++++++360s+++++++>time > > > [t]annin [g]ood tasting substances > > > Where it gets illogical is where I read "a green tea can be steeped = > several > times". Multiple infusions seem to have a magical reset effect on = > relative > concentrations. I would have taught that eventually all the "tasty" > subtances will be extracted and overpowered with remaining tannins. For = > me, > the last of three 2 minutes infusions should be at least as bad as a = > single > 4 minutes infusion. > > Why am I wrong?

The difference between theory and practice is that in theory, there is no difference, but in practice, there is.

I am by no means an expert in either chemistry or paranormal superstitions, but what probably happens here is that in good teas, celestial fragrances from heaven dimension get transported to your cup by astral entities. The distance is infinite, but they're quick as a thought - still, it takes a minute or two for them to fetch the fragrance and sprinkle it in your cup.

This theory still does not explain what happens with the tannins, so you can safely ignore it. I am lucky not to be an expert - if I were, my reputation could be tainted.

- Andrei

P.S. You're wrong because you don't know what *really* happens. HTH

> > Julie C. > >
Reply to
AK
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Andrei wrote his theory

So far your theory is the best (only) published here to answer my question. :-)

P.S. I can't be wrong knowing I'm wrong.

Reply to
Julie C.

Thank you :-)

It's an interesting question, though. Maybe there's a multi-chain chemical reaction where some intermediate product breaks up when temperature goes down, so it has to start all over again? I read that there are about 400 different chemicals in tea. And perhaps many of them combine to make other chemicals when heated..

- Andrei

Reply to
AK

Yes. I would be very surprised if those 400 chemicals were inert. But, it's not the effect of heat that puzzles me. It's the cumulative effect of time.

It's like someone would have told me that old tea becomes new again each time you put it into a new caddy. In my comprehension of chemistry, adding new water doesn't reset the brewing process to initial conditions. It restarts were it was left last time. Brewing is not reversible.

Reply to
Julie C.

I'm no scientist, but my understanding is that the different chemicals extract at certain rates (xmgs. per minute) depending on the water temp. Some like caffeine extract very quickly and others at a much slower rate. In other words if a flavor extracts at 20mg per minute and you brew for two minutes you get 40mg in the cup. Other flavors may take 6 minutes to get 40 mgs. I think those rates would stay the same on the next steeping. So if it takes the bitter flavors 4 or 5 minutest to reach a concentration where they over power, it should take just as long on the next steep. I don't think it takes longer for those flavors to begin to extract, it just take longer to extract enough to affect the taste.

Blues

Reply to
blues Lyne

Perhaps we aren't dealing with a ratio of tannins (which aren't always undesirable) to another substance released by the leaves; perhaps we are dealing with the ratio of tannins to water.

My theory: Until a certain amount of tannins (polyphenols, actually) is realeased into the water, it can be drunk and enjoyed. The unoxidized polyphenols (who contribute astringency) aren't yet too bitter, and the palate can enjoy the slight bitterness while covering it with the flavor (oxidized polyphenols) and essential oils (aroma). After a point, the unoxidized tannins reach a certain concentration per fluid ounce of liquid, and regardless of other substances reach a bitterness that is to great to enjoy.

You can see that, when you introduce new water that has no unoxidized polyphenols in it, you can accrue more polyphenols until the leaves run dry and become uninteresting or you reach tannin critical mass again and can repeat.

This would also explain the longer possible steeping times for black tea as opposed to green, as green is almost totally unoxidized, whereas black is almost totally oxidized.

Happy infusions (and re-infusions!),

ZBL

Reply to
Zephyrus

I agree.

Maybe not exactly true for caffeine but true in general.

Extraction cannot be expressed by a linear function. It should be asymptotic. In other words, if 20 mg of flavor is extracted in the first minute, the second minute will yield less, the third even less, etc., until all the tea is spent.

If the good flavors are extracted faster, then it's easier for them to get overpowered in the second cup.

Thank you for the answer.

Reply to
Julie C.

It's the same thing. Comparing absolute quantities in a fixed volume is the same as comparing concentrations.

(X mg/ Y mg) /cup = (X mg/l) / (Y mg/l) = X/Y

I totally agree.

I didn't explain my experiment clearly.

I compare single and multiple infusions at the same strenght. If decide to make three cups of tea in a sequence, I also must infuse three cups simultanously. That's 3x250 ml with multiple infusions, and 750 ml for a single infusion.

If it's only unoxydized polyphenols (thank you for the vocabulary) that are giving bitter taste, then your are right. I should care very much not to oversteep green teas, but I can be (almost) careless with black teas.

Thank you (again).

Reply to
Julie C.

slower rate.

Or is this just (partly) a myth? At least according to a scientific paper I found on the web (sorry, can't find the reference), during a 2 minute steeping 55-90 % of the caffeine

*and* the flavones and flavonols (both are groups of polyphenols) are extracted, and 35-55 % of the flavanols (also polyphenols).

This seems to indicate that there isn't a *huge* difference in the extraction time of the different compounds in tea, though it must be said that most of the polyphenols are in fact flavanols, and therefore are extracted slower than caffeine.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Nossen

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