Why is Gong Fu brewing superior?

I agree with Michael, it isn't necessarily better than the English style. In fact I find it a boring chore to have to sit through a flowery display of exaggerated movements and crappy chinese music to get a sip of mediocre tea. These days, the term Gongfu style is more likely a set of elaborate rituals, then days of yore, when gongfu style was a group of old folks sitting round the table and preparing tea in a leisure unceremonious way. I missed those days of my childhood, hanging around old folks listening to their gossips and trading news from China, and yearning for a sip of tea.

The best way to explain to your Dad, is to share with him the Moment preparing the tea. The focus is not on the preparation, but the sharing of the moment.

Have fun.

Danny

Having just read a whole bunch of older texts on tea... I don't think this is how the upper class drank tea, at least not in the written record.

While some of what we do nowadays echo some of the ideas in Luyu's Tea Classic, much of the writing in between his time and the Ming talk variously about pressed tea that need to be grated, with stuff added in, etc, that we don't do these days. Tea were meant to be pressed into form before consumption during the Song. That much seems pretty clear from things like the Daguan Chalun.

In the Ming it is obvious that loose tea became the standard. However, in terms of ratio of tea vs water, duration of brews, that sort of thing, it would still seem that there's a significance between what was done then, and what we do now. For example, silver or pewter was recommended by one person who wrote on tea in the Ming.... whereas these days we all think yixing clay is the best. There are lots of specifics that are not the same at all.

Of course, the concept and the theory of tea brewing is still largely there -- after all, I think the Taiwanese were inspired precisely by the same texts that talk about this sort of thing. However, I think it would be a stretch to say that what we do now bears a close resemblence to what was done then.

MarshalN

Mr. Nail... meet Mr. Hit On Head.

You said it perfectly. It isn't the charade and the pomp and circumstance that makes it nor is that what would ever endear anyone who is uninitialted. Gongfu is exactly as you said it, an unceremonious (yet still highly skillful) brewing of tea. And the perfect accompanyment is not silly music or forced dialogue... but real interaction and enjoyment of those sharing the moment with you and having *meaningful* conversation and experiences with them.

I couldn't have summed up my feelings any better than you did right there. Congrats. You win at the internet! :)

- Dominic

[MarshalN]

Nice. I recommend (Ming) Zhang Yuan's Cha Lu if you have not read it. Who was it that proposed using silver or pewter? I assume you mean as the kettle for boiling water, not tea? Silver & Gold were recommended as vessels for boiling water in, I don't think there's a recommendation to use them as teapots for brewing. That is a much later concept, I think the British came upon this in the 18th century - silver at least.

You mentioned about the grating of tea into powder...up till the Song period, this was largely because the powder would be place in a bowl, whipped, and drank. From Ming period onwards teapots were introduced, along with loose leaf tea, so there was no need to grate the compressed tea cakes into powder any longer. However, if you recall the traditional style of Chaozhou gongfu tea, powdered or crushed leaves was recommended, usually about 15-20% of the total amount used. These were packed at the back between layers of loose leaf. On a square piece of paper the brewer would separate the whole leaves from the crushed ones, and layer them separately. If there were less crushed leaves, some of the whole leaves would be crushed.

You mentioned also that Gongfu tea style is something the Chinese experience tea only from about 30 years ago, and that Gongfu tea as we appreciate it today is a fairly recent phenomenon as a widespread thing...I would agree with the latter point, but not on the 1st point. I'm afraid you have to quantify Chinese as a nation or ethnic race. I agree with you in the communist regime of China up till 30 odd years ago, Gongfu style might not be the way they experienced tea in China, but the Chinese in other areas still continued the tradition, won't you agree?

Danny

The recommendation of using silver/pewter to make tea (and also boil water) is from Zhicha Xinpu, written by Qian Chunnian during the Ming

-- I'm not sure which reign period. From the text it seems pretty explicit that he is talking of the vessel that holds the leaves and in which tea brews, and not just for boiling water.

I know that Chaozhou cha tends to use crushed leaves as a "core", but I think there is a very important distinction between that and the use of matcha in the sense that in matcha, we are drinking the leaves along with the liquid, while in the Chaozhou method, the crushed leaves are crushed to increase the intensity of flavour extration, but the leaves themselves are not meant for consumption. The separation of leaves and water is, IMO, a signficant modification in the method of making tea, and requires a whole different set of movements/skills to accomplish, no?

I am really skeptical of the claim that what we now call G "first take the tea into your hand, then after pouring water into the pot, put the tea leaves into the water. Close the lid tightly, don't let air leak out, wait a little, about three breaths, then pour it all out into the holding vessel. Then, pour (this) back into the pot, this way the fragrance will be immediately obvious and the colour will not be dull and lacklustre. Wait about three more breaths, let it settle (?), and then pour it into the drinking vessel...."

It's vaguely like what we do, but different on so many levels that... I don't think I'm comfortable calling it the same style of brewing.

Now, we don't know if what he's describing is just what he does, or what is generally done around his area/time. Both are possible, and it's not obvious which one is the case here just by reading the text, as it offers few clues. However, judging from the forewards to the book, it seems that the person who wrote it has spent his life drinking and studying tea, and is therefore quite knowledgable. I'd imagine that what he wrote at least reflects one style of tea making. It is difficult to tell if it's the prevalent style.

The most likely answer is that there was a large number of various schools in how to make tea properly, and the differences among them are probably much more substantial than the mostly cosmetic differences we see now between different "schools". In this narrative, we have the author telling us to put the leaves into the water, and not the other way around. He also advocates the use of the water that we consider as wash to pour back into the tea to make the real infusion... also an interesting way to make tea that would be quite different than what we do today.

What we are seeing these days, and what we practice these days, is still largely the invention and formalization of one particular style of tea making. I'm sure that as we move along in the revival of tea, schools will splinter and different ways of making tea will surface. But I think it is a little too romantic to think that what we do now is in large part similar to how people a few hundred or even a thousand years ago drank tea throughout China.

MarshalN

[Michael] yes it is too!!!!!!

Hey, man! If you're gonna crtiicize at that level, you need to be **much** more specific. I only want to add that we take camera shot out of time and define correctness based on the photo. In reality, all the ceremonies permute over time. What is silly and what is serious depends on many things and many people. I make a point of keeping my mind so wide open that my brains pour out, relieving me of any responsibility for my tea actions.

If you're saying you'd rather drink tea in a village with the old people than to drink at the world's best tea at the rich man's table, then we're on the same page here.

Yes, it does have its spontaneous side, but be aware that there is a far more formalized version which is worth getting to know, and some day I indeed will.

Michael

samarkand456dd0ef$ snipped-for-privacy@news.starhub.net.sg11/29/06 13: snipped-for-privacy@uk2.net

Come on, Danny. Cut to the chase. Whatever happened to the damned snake? Wait, wait, don't tell me! They named a tea after him in WuYi. BTW, in China, do they eat snake tails? There's a tale whose time has come.

Anything else I can do to help the discussion along, let me know. Seriously, enjoyed the tales. Michael

I just don't like "modernizing" it too much, it kind of loses its soul to me. Drain tubes, or (as I've seen) using product containers to store tea (branded stuff like Pepsi, Lipton's, etc.), and such kind of remove you from the experience. I find it distracting to have that kind of stuff. Some tradition and respect has to be kept... that was more what I was hinting at. Sure, some random product container may hold the tea just fine, and it may be cheaper than a cherry bark tea container... but it just kinda cheapens it a bit too much. Inventiveness in the spirit of the ceremony or out of necessity is fine by me as long as the skill is there.

I have a very open mind myself, and try and experience anything and everything I can, however some customs/religions/traditions are just forced. For example, Scientology... it is made out of times of excess and has no basis in tradition or necessity. It is not deep, and it has no soul or history. To me after my many years with it, the Japanese tea ceremony has a lot of these same flaws and problems. It got changed and many meanings and purposes were lost in favor of excess and opulence, and it just isn't my "cup of tea."

Then we're on the same page :) It doesn't even have to be "old" people it could be shared happily with children or young folks who share the same traditions and customs and beliefs. They don't even have to be in poverty, I know many rich friends who do not show it nor care one bit and still have both feet firmly planted on terra firma.

I guess I come from the other side here, I've seen that formal side of the mountain and I didn't like it. Some formality is OK by me, the extremes that can be experienced are not. The forced dialogue, or the scripted comments on the surroudnings and process... spare me. I think you'll come to find that you have the proper view of things as you are now, and seeing that other side will only reinforce it. I could be wrong, but from your comment above about the rich/poor table I'd venture to guess it'll pan out that way. Heck, it managed to capture my interest and admiration for quite some time, until research and digging turned up some unpleasant information and B.S. then it all became too apparent to even pretend to enjoy or respect.

It's all about balance and individual enjoyment and fulfillment for most of us. Without many of us having huge groups in RL to share in the delights, the best one can shoot for is happiness, harmony, appreciation, and most importantly balance in our own tea pusuits. I know I have learned a lot, experienced even more, grown, opened, respected, and found calmness and personal satisfaction through tea and learning the art of skillful brewing... Gung Fu.

So there is quite a bit to be gained in Gung Fu over just tossing a teabag in a mug of tepid water and dousing it with refined white sugar and milk. They are also the things that could never be explained to someone who doesn't share in the experience and hope for them to understand fully. While I can enjoy a scone and a cuppa... that could never have brought me where the real art of tea has.

- Dominic

[MarshalN] The recommendation of using silver/pewter to make tea (and also boil water) is from Zhicha Xinpu, written by Qian Chunnian during the Ming

-- I'm not sure which reign period. From the text it seems pretty explicit that he is talking of the vessel that holds the leaves and in which tea brews, and not just for boiling water.

[Danny] Hi MarshalN, do read that passage again, and compare it to the other texts from the Song and Ming periods. From what I understand...if you mean the line that says that "Cha Tiao, Cha Ping" is best made of Silver or Pewter... "Cha Ping" is a vessel used for boiling water and holding hot water. The only mention I found was from an article published in 1936, called "An Overview of The Hidden History of Qing Dynasty" - Qing Chao Ye Shi Da Guang, vol. 12, which mentioned that the teapot may be made of copper or clay. Its reliability (as a book) is questionable, as it was copied from a wide range of sources. [MarshalN] I know that Chaozhou cha tends to use crushed leaves as a "core", but I think there is a very important distinction between that and the use of matcha in the sense that in matcha, we are drinking the leaves along with the liquid, while in the Chaozhou method, the crushed leaves are crushed to increase the intensity of flavour extration, but the leaves themselves are not meant for consumption. The separation of leaves and water is, IMO, a signficant modification in the method of making tea, and requires a whole different set of movements/skills to accomplish, no? [Danny] No, but we have deviated. This discussion arose from your comments that Gongfu style is a recent development, from about 30 years ago,as you wrote. What I'm trying to point out is that the development of Gongfu style went further back, and can be traced back as far as Luyu. Tradition is never static, it evolves over time with the peoples that practiced it, so what the Gongfu style we have now, which is still changing and adapting, is not developed 30 years ago, but its genesis went much further back in history.

If you want to talk about eating and drinking tea, Chinese people these days still eat tea, whether it is grated or whole leaves, from the tribal culture in Yunnan to the sophisticated drinkers along the Zhejiang. But these has nothing to do with Gongfu style.

In traditional Gongfu style there is one extra step that is no longer practiced nowadays: after the leaves were in the pot and the hot water poured in, a towel is used to cover the spout and lid of the pot, to prevent the fragrance from escaping. In no modern day gongfu style have I seen this, but I'm not going to dismiss it as un-gongfu. What the people in the past started and practised, people through the ages modify and adapt.

[MarshalN] I am really skeptical of the claim that what we now call Gongfu tea style is a method that was practiced on any sort of large scale in the past in "China", which would include Greater China, etc. I tend to think that it is more of a locally/regionally focused method, along the SE coast of China extending up to Minbei, perhaps. From my grandfather's recollection tea was not prepared in anything like what we do now when he was a child in our ancestral home near Suzhou, and that certainly predates the Communist era. The tea they drink, typically refined green tea of light flavours, also does not lend itself well to what we do now. When you go further north, I think the tea drinking tastes change as well. Beijingers generally drank floral teas and green teas, and things like puerh were probably drunk by the Manchus with milk mixed in. [Danny] You correctly pointed out that. Gongfu style is indeed a tea culture that was confined to the SE China in the old days, and later Taiwan and the Asia regions - however, you have to qualify what is Gongfu style, which in itself is a confusing term. People futher west, especially in the Sichuan region, used gaiwans, they have developed their own style which is nowadays accepted as Gaiwan Gongfu style. In Suzhou and along the Zhejiang region there was almost no Gongfu style on green tea, not that I know of, but you pointed out that there was, probably originating from Xu Cishu:

If you go back to the beginning of the text where he talked about harvesting and processing tea, you'll find that he was talking about the processing of green tea. His method then makes sense. Pour the water first so the water cools somewhat before throwing in the leaves. As the leaves will not all sink, the brew has to be poured out and pour back in again to soak the leaves completely this time. Have you seen this being done in China? I have, countless of time in Shanghai, on green tea...

[MarshalN] The most likely answer is that there was a large number of various schools in how to make tea properly, and the differences among them are probably much more substantial than the mostly cosmetic differences we see now between different "schools". In this narrative, we have the author telling us to put the leaves into the water, and not the other way around. He also advocates the use of the water that we consider as wash to pour back into the tea to make the real infusion... also an interesting way to make tea that would be quite different than what we do today. [Danny] Yes. but the point on "use of the water that we consider as wash to pour back into the tea to make the real infusion" is part of the recent development, old style Gongfu cha did not include this. [MarshalN] What we are seeing these days, and what we practice these days, is still largely the invention and formalization of one particular style of tea making. I'm sure that as we move along in the revival of tea, schools will splinter and different ways of making tea will surface. But I think it is a little too romantic to think that what we do now is in large part similar to how people a few hundred or even a thousand years ago drank tea throughout China. [Danny] Indeed, but neither you nor I say that it is a romantic notion or what we do now is in large part similar to the past. My point is that the current styles all have a starting point, and that point wasn't 30 years ago. Have you read Lin Yutang's "Making Tea & Friends"? This would be the modern classic on tea making, though there are several points that did not match Gongfu style but green tea making from Zhejiang region - not sure if it was deliberate, as Lin Yutang was from Fujian.

[Michael]

Hell no! What's a snake's tail when you can eat the whole body head down?

The snake is skinned and stewed in a starchy stew with chrysanthemum petals, its blood drawn out earlier as a tonic drunk neat (anyone remember Danny Boyle's The Beach, in which Leonardo DiCarprio dares and empties a shot glass of snake blood? yup, that's like it), its gall extracted as medicine against acute asthma and bronchitis...

I can't seem to come up with a tea-tale with mice in it...

:")

Well, yes, normally I would also think Cha Ping is a vessel for holding the water. But the way he described the Cha Ping in the text makes me think that this is actually holding tea, not the water. Since he said "if the ping is big, and you don't drink it, stopping and then starting again, then the flavours will all be released and is no longer good". Since the "ping" here is obviously something you are pouring water into (and which he emphasized needs to be small) then it seems to me that this is where the leaves are. After all, if it's just a vessel holding water, then what does a ping's size have to do with flavours being all released?

Yes, I know this is more or less about green tea, but this is also green tea that is roasted, it seems. Maybe it's closer to Hojicha from Japan? I'm not sure. He specifically uses the term we now use for roasting teas, and he said that while frying the tea takes a short time, roasting takes a long time, so you need more roasting stations than frying ones. Chances are, it's not very like any tea we drink these days.

As for the "throwing the water back into the tea after pouring it out first", no, I have to say that even though my family's Shanghainese, I've never seen people do it this way.

I think basically we're not disagreeing on the specifics, but rather, the basic definition of "gongfu" brewing. I think I just took issue with the line where you said we're drinking tea in ways similar to how people have been drinking tea in "China" (which is, itself, a variable and problematic concept, but that's another topic) for the past 2000 years. I think on many practical levels, that's not true. However, I can agree that in the spirit of making tea, and the basic philosophy of brewing tea, there are threads that link us back to Luyu and beyond.

In some ways, I think Chinese tea drinking is very practical -- it's whatever makes a good cup. There's no set "ceremony" and no protocol, as long as what you do makes a cup that you enjoy. Everything else is extra. And on that, we can probably all agree.

MarshalN

...

By the way, while this has been extremely interesting to discuss interpretations of older texts on tea, I am afraid we might be spamming other people's mailboxes when such texts are, unfortunately, not available to them in any form :(

Maybe we can talk about this over a cup of tea in Hong Kong.

MarshalN

Samarkand, I'm glad to hear you say this. While Lu Yu frowned on onions and pepper in tea as the mark of a barbarian, he included detailed directions on when to add the salt. But he didn't say how much. So, how much salt do I add?

I'm not being sarcastic - if anyone has an idea, I would like to know. Also, does anyone know what kind of modern tea is closest to what he used?

Personally, I think that vacuum-packing is the best modern contribution to tea. It really makes a difference.

Best,

Rick.

No, no, no! I promise to let you know when I'm bored.

/Lew

Danny, thanks for the great post (and to others, also, for making this thread an enjoyable and interesting read). I'd like to second the recommendation of Lin Yutang, particularly as he is one of the few scholars of the Chinese old-school whose work is largely available to a Western audience. I imagine most people would find his urbane brand of humourous wisdom amusing and relevant even in modern times.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Toodlepip,

Hobbes

[Dominic] [Dominic]

much snippage.

[Michael] I'm mostly saying that concepts of right and wrong tea or good and bad tea, like facts and truths, are ascribed. (Think Durkheim.) Ascribe truth to your heart's content; just realize that that is what we do. That's my basic answser to most things tea; but, I still look forward to starting my serious journey down the Gung Fu tea road.

much snippage

[Danny]

I think we touch on the issue of naming things. Bears build nests in caves and men build elaborate mansions, but at what point do we ascribe the word "house" to the habitation? It's just names. From that point of view, you are both, I think, pretty much in agreement.

[Danny] [Michael] No wonder I've been so jittery lately. [Danny] [Michael] Truer words were never spoken, those last. Amusing to see folks clinging to some absolute tradition that never existed in the first place; that is, never went through a stable unchanging period.

Barbarians!

[Michael] So, further evidence that the discussion's about little more than the names of the forms. Where and when did Gung Fu become Gung Fu? Pick your favorite place and your favorite period, and you're in like Flynn.

more major snippage

[Michael] Among these schools, it might be asked, Can't we all just get along? But alas.... [Michael] On a lower plane, when I steep a truly green style Oolong from either Taiwan or Anxi, I often drink the wash because in some varietals the first fine essences are so quickly lost. No tradition here, just me learning from my humble experience. [Michael] But, isn't it fun to try to brew the tea as it was brewed a thousand years ago, impossible as it might be? It's a kind of entertainment to attempt to replicate those methods.

yet more snippage

You both bring such extraordinary intelligence and sensitivity to this discussion, I feel the need to apologize for trampling around it, but nonetheless here am I.

Michael

[Danny]

Well, you're not spamming mine, although I'm gathering a thousand questions for the next time I see you. Prepare! Michael

[Lew]

:"P

But we are. To be continued in 2007 in Hongkong...

Danny