I realized tonight I still have a couple bottles of 1992 remaining in my cellar.
Last time I had it was really nice about 3 years ago. I had bought cheap on futures.
All I can say is an off year of Bordeaux can often beat a great year anywhere else. This wine is an example of that.
I noticed that Haut Brion says drink now. Robert Parker says Drink Now, but will also hold for several years. Who do you beleive.
I plan to drink the remaining dinner with Rack of Lamb seared stove top, that is coated in Coarse Grain Mustard and crusted Pistachio and finished in oven to Med Rare.
I think when Tom said Big Eight he meant the 1st growths (Lafite, Margaux, Mouton, Haut-Brion, Latour) as well as Cheval Blanc, Petrus, and Ausone. Dale
I haven't had enough Ausone to make a judgement, but wasn't ranking wines, just explaining the term- the five First Growths, the 2 St Emilion 1er Grande Cru Classe "A"s, and Petrus. Certainly from a price standpoint Le Pin and Lafleur are up there, but size of property, etc. have left the term Big 8 to mean those, I think.
Of course, if anyone is passing thru NY area and wants to bring me some Ausone to try, I'd be prepared to sacrifice my palate to see if I agree with Bill. :`)
I think the term has been applied only to reds. Actually, I listed Cheval Blanc originally didn't I? If I didn't I should have. Anyway, it is the other St.Em.
1er Grand Cru Classe "A".
In any case, I'm pretty sure that when the term "Big 8" is used re Bordeaux that's the list. Doesn't mean that there aren't other wines that are better. Dale
I am not sure why Petrus should belong. They make acclaimed wine, but they are not classified as such. That is why I would add Y'Quem, since its classification is even higher than that of the First Growths.
Anyway, the original poster has clarified and his definition agrees with yours.
Tom, Does this mean that (shock, horror!) you've given up on Red Burgundy? I certainly hope not, as I've learned a lot from your observations about the producers over the past few years in afw.
No worries! I still drink some of the red stuff too lol.
Just not a whole lot with current pricing.
Recent notes include high marks for 2000 Drouhin Musigny and the 2000 Engel range. 2000 Dujac Clos de la Roche is stunning as usual. 2000 DRC a mixed bag. I liked the Echezeaux, but felt La Tache- while good- was not worth the cost of having a case- so I sold half of it.
And pricing is just getting insane for too many wines. Mortet is getting up there now. Great wines, but I will NOT pay $75-80 for AOC wines regardless of who makes them. So now Mortet joins Niellon and a few others on my "no way I am buying these" list.
But there is plenty to be excited about in white burgundy. I have been tasting through the 2001 Ramonet whites and they are absolutely incredible. The Chevalier Montrachet is one of the finest Ramonet wines I have ever had. Puligny Champ Canet and Chassagne Caillerets are stunning. More TNs coming over time. I intend to taste them all this year including Montrachet. A vintage this good I do not want to miss at any stage of the game.
If you want my big score of the year suggestion- it is 2001 Ramonet whites. And if you open one, give it time to air. The premier crus need a couple of hours. The Chevalier hit its stride after several hours of airing and an overnight rest in the fridge for the rest of the bottle.
Germany, of course, has been on a roll too. I am about this weekend to begin a
1-2 month plan to slowly try through the 2000 and 2001 Muller Catoir wines.
And Hune is having one heck of a streak too!
So with all that action, been kind of hard to justify spending the higher prices on reds. But we shall see what 2001 brings. I am going to test some things soon and see what I think. I usually post TNs on Squires these days, but will do my best to remember to bring them over here too if there is still interest.
I bought some 2001 Ensigneres at a great price. In fact, I have not seen Ramonet so cheap in a long time. I did not even taste it yet. What should I expect and how long to hold before drinking? I thought 2001 was cheap because the vintage was lesser quality. (Robert Parker gave it an 86). Is that a bad assumption?
I love Ramonet, but it is rarely cheap. It always needs air, too. There is so much sulphur when opened. It is hard to believe all the fruit that suddenly comes out of nowhere after time exposed to air.
Actually this is a function of market more than anything I think. Ramonet has not raised his prices since 1990- but many retailers and wholesalers decided to gouge customers during the good times.
Up until the 2001 vintage, I had never paid more than $225 per bottle for the Montrachet and for 2001 it was $275- in line with the currency effect happening with many wines. I paid $202.50 for the 1995 Montrachet- same as I paid for the
1994.
As for the WA opinion, Rovani and I have had some Squires BB discussions about Ramonet and we have a key disagreement on whether the acidification practices changed in the mid 1990s leading to lesser quality.
I will not disparage his views here since he is a learned critic and he is not a reader here, but I will just say we disagree.
While Ramonet still has a huge fan base, WA opinion has- I think- chased a lot of the rich point buyers off of Ramonet and on to things I am happy to let them have instead :) The loss of this small, but wealthy, crowd has an enormous impact on demand and pricing- to the benefit of those of us who truly appreciate the wines.
In fact, demand has been so low relative to the recent past that my 2001 allocation has tripled from what I got in 1995! So no complaints here.
As for the 2001 vintage in general, it is not a top year but my experience so far agrees with Burghound that there were a few estates that did have a truly monumental performance. 2001 Ramonets, if they age as I expect, will represent one of the great vintages for this estate.
True- Ramonet never comes cheap. But relative to Niellon, Leflaive, d'Auvenay and the other truly top estates of proven record it remains the best value I think. So while $60-300 a bottle is not exactly cheap, relative to the population the pricing is very good.
And over time I think this wine ages the best too. I have had many a bottle of great vintage Niellon that was past best- Niellon himself advocates drinking the wines young. But Ramonet wines consistently reward cellaring and, while great in youth, are just unbelievable when mature. You have to taste one to see just how much they change since tasting them young makes you think it cannot get any better.
And current auction value of older vintages is proof of that I think. In 1997 I paid $400 per bottle for the 1982 and 1986 at auction. These days, they go for closer to $1,000. Right now Christie's is about to auction off a bottle each of the 1992 Batard and Bienvenue and the low estimate is $700!
So more than in the past it is wise to grab these on release since it is no longer possible to get mature bottles at a reasonable price.
Tom.
PS- What is your favorite Dimitri? I have to confess the Bienvenue Batard is my favored Ramonet wine. I would take that over any of the others any day!
Thanks for your lengthy response. Please summarize the key points of disagreement if you will.
I am not privy to have tasted as many as you have, but I love all of the premier crus, especially Les Caillerets and Les Ruchottes. Of the grand cru, I have only had the Batard Montrachet, which was good but probably not worth the price. I have read that the Bienvenue is probably their best wine and definitely the best Bienvenue.
I have not had any of the reds, but would like to try some. I never see them, nor the village wine. I would buy them if I found them. I rarely see any Ramonet at all, in fact.
I think the main issue is that Rovani expresses concern with current acidification practices and feels they are not rendering wines that will have the greatness of older vintages. I believe, based on experience and discussion with some who know the Ramonets quite well that nothing has changed from the past in this regard.
But Rovani is no idiot and has been to Ramonet many times, so while we agree to disagree I am not prepared based on my limited first hand knowledge to dismiss his views as unfounded or without some reasoned basis.
I also generally disagree with the styles of wines he prefers. I do not care for many of the estates he rates highly, and vice versa. But again keep in mind my tastes are hardly mainstream. I do not like burgundies with what I consider an excess of fruit and wood relative to the balance. Burgundy is not great for its fruit power, but for its finesse and perfume. That is my view anyway.
Where did you read this? I would be curious to know. It certainly would reflect a view shared by many of my fellow Ramonet fans. My love of this one is also one of style. I tend to prefer a Bienvenue or a Criots to something more massive like a Corton Charlemagne or even Montrachet. There are very few Montrachets in fact that I like given the opportunity cost of owning them. But Ramonet Bienvenue just sings. It is unreal how good this is and I cannot WAIT to try the 2001- I am saving that for a special lunch the first week of November.
As for Batard- I have never cared for the Ramonet bottling, or most others for that matter. But to be fair I think a lot of this has to do with the sheer mass of the wine. Ramonet Batard is, in my experience, the least giving of the Ramonet wines in youth. It never shows well young and I am at the point where I am waiting for what I have to mature so I can rethink my position. As with the Montrachet I think this one just might need time to show its stuff- whereas Chevalier and Bienvenue are quite generous in their tender years. I am fairly new to the Chevalier since it just joined the Ramonet line-up, but I think this one is surprisingly forward. Burghound has made this comment as well in his notes for the 2000 bottling- which I have not tasted, nor own.
No TNs for the reds here either. Winebid.com has some right now at VERY low prices- along the lines of $15-20 each. So those might be worth a look if you are interested.
The village wine is good, but I really like the Bourgogne Aligote. See if you can find this one. It is made from the Aligote grape (white wine) and quite tasty. Runs about $20-25 these days.
Tom.
PS- As for you rarely seeing the wines, I think that is just the nature of burgundy. Some people have the idea I have all this access to burgundy and huge sums of money to throw at the stuff. Not true actually. I just have the luck of a good merchant who charges fair markup and gives me incredible access to about
5 estates, and I keep a savings account all year for the annual purchase about this time of year. I never see Lafon or Leflaive around here for example. And I have never had a good shot at Vogue (which does come here and is reserved for others) or Dugat-Py. So I have just resolved to dig deep into the ones I can get at true release price and I avoid chasing the others on the secondary market. As much as I love Ramonet, there is every chance I would be raving about some other Domaine if Ramonet was not something I could get my hands on :)
But I think that is the secret to burgundy. Find what you really like out of the ones in your market, and go with it. I do not imagine I will ever be someone who can afford to have a little bit of all of the top wines- not to mention how hard it would be to find them all!
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