Are we wine snobs?

Is the wine of Spain more like that of F_____ or Italy? I have had only one bottle of Spanish wine, called Muga, I think (not counting that Garnache i spoke about last month), so I have not had enough to get any idea.

Doesn't matter. I prefer individuality over doing things just because thats they way 'they' say. I drink the wines I like, when I like them. Don't care what works for someone else unless I'm serving them food and wine. Then I try to serve what they like.

Thats true but Italy is by far the worlds largest producer of jug wine. Nobody else comes close. When people here state how Italians have wine with every meal they are generally talking about the cheap jug wine.

Thanks.

Overall, I make a point of ignoring most of what the 'wine experts' say. My take is, those who can, do. Those who can't, critique.

My senses are my own. My palate, unique. What tastes like a 94 probably tastes fine, but still, may not be my personal preference. Who needs scoring, anyway? I think more often than not, scoring is for the impatient aficionado (a contradiction in terms given the love, care, and patience required to craft an excellent wine). I tend to think those who pay most attention to points also happen to be uninformed, as they haven't tasted many or any of the wines, don't know what to expect, and would rather fall back to using a simple score to serve as a basis for their purchasing decision. Worse still, however, is the fact that scoring is most-targeted at wine snobs. I know of a few people who refuse to drink anything under a 94. If it's not a 94, it's not worth my time, they say! It all seems like one more step towards keeping the enjoyment of wine an exclusive activity.

To the average consumer, scoring can be misread. If you happen to like a particular wine, but learn it's scored at a 78, what does that say for your palate? Does it make you distrust the reviewer? Or does it mean your sense of appreciation is unrefined and, perhaps, even vulgar? In any case, does the fact you like a lesser-scored wine make you any less a lover of wines?

In any case, I have a positive comment about AFW to share (don't faint). I'm glad to see so many good and honest wine reviews on AFW as of late. Most read quite well, give some good analysis of the wines, and I have found these more helpful than anything I've seen in the 'professional' rags. So keep it up, everyone! And thanks for sharing your reviews.

Finally... I'd like to hear your own comments as to what you all think about wine critics who tout reviews that seem more like a gushing of ego than honest analysis.

Cheers,

David

Of the varietals I enjoy, I find I have about a 10% chance of enjoying a wine thats rated 78. I have about a 50% chance of enjoying a wine thats rated 90+. So if I am looking for something new to try should I go for the 78 rated one or the 90+ one all other things being equal (price etc.).

Now if someone else buys them, I will try them both! Wines always taste better when someone else pays for them. That rule should be in some of the wine books!

That said, I have found several inexpensive wines poorly rated that I find very enjoyable especially for their price.

I think you are reporting habits from 15-20 years ago. Consumption in I and F has since fallen by over 50%. The jug wine goes mostly for export. People still drink low priced wine from local cooperatives, but much less of it and a better grade of it.

Home-made, for the most part.

'Scoring' seems to be an American obsession.

Yes. It reduces a complex judgement to a numerical one that is meaningless.

Yes.

They don't know this because they don't know this. People don't know everything. Even =I= don't know everything. There are some elementary things that I don't know.

People should not be insulted for not knowing something.

Perhaps. However I posit that somebody who has tasted both wines sufficiently, both with and without food, and has paid attention to the taste sensations, can learn to correlate the two. One needn't be a pro, just an interested amateur. It does take experience however to do it well.

Jose

Perhaps I am not clear. The entire spectrum of activities (tasting, evaluating, matching with food, describing) wines was established by the F_____ and British in the 19th c. It does not apply to the rather different Italian wine world. The notion of '"haute cuisine" and 'gourmet' cooking are F_____, obviously. Italian cooking and dining are communal. One large pot of something or other is made, from which everyone takes a share. No little plates with two ounces of something on it. That's Napoleanic.

... not really relevant. I'm not discussing anything like that. It doesn't matter if you call it "gourmet" or not, if it tastes really really good, then that's enough to cause an orgasm. If it's ok, then it isn't. This is true whether Thai, French, I____, Japanese, or anything else.

Some wines go better with some foods. This is also universal.

Selecting which is which when one does not already know is what we're discussing. That one does not already know is a =given= here.

Jose

Perhaps I am still not being clear. F_____ wines can be "works of art", and can be appreciated on their own somewhat more readily than Italian wines, which, for the most part have been bred to match local & regional dishes. They're more 'practical', in that sense, than F_____ wines. They are designed to be appreciated not on their own, but rather as companions to the regional fare. They are not statues to be contemplated, but clothing to be worn.

Fair enough. I'll take that on faith, having not had much experience with French or I_____ wines.

Would you say they are more versatile, for example, for any given I_____ dish, there are a =much= wider variety of I_____ wines that go well with it than there would be French wines with any given French dish?

If this is true, would you say that there are fewer I____ wines/dish matches that are =spectacular= as well as fewer such matches that are =disastrous= than the French equivalent, with more of them being in the middle ("pretty good matches - fine with family and friends")?

Clothing can look awful or stunning too. And clothes look different on a manniquin than they look on a person.

Jose

I don't know that that is necessarily true. Northern, southern, and central Italian wines are based on different grapes:

Nebbiolo, Dolcetto, Barbera in Piedmont. Bonarda, Corvina, Rondinella, Molinara in Lombardia and Veneto Sangiovese in Tuscany Aglianico in Campania and Basilicata. Negroamaro in Puglia Nero d'Avola in Sicily Carignano in Sardegna

The dishes in various parts of Italy may feature the same meat (lamb, for instance) but the local way of preparing it may make the dish match better with the local wines.

Right. You understand. Some wines are royal gowns, some are rags, but they are not "works of art".

Despite my being more on the traditionalist and terrOIrist side, I can't help asking you: why bloody not? Just because cab, pinotnoir, merl, chard are not native of Italy's soil, maybe?

And maybe most of them will..but still, may I ask you if you _tried_ one of them, at least, before thumbing them down like this?

You mean: European Union needs to simplify its wine laws, maybe...

That is probably what can be said about most of the non-English-speaking wine producing countries, is it not? Or is it that German labels are more beginners-friendly, perhaps those written in fraktur fonts?

You see.. many things you are saying are more than reasonable. But why on earth do you need to shoot down your own credibility, with a remark such as your last one?

Anyway, imho DOCG, DOC are not meaningless, they are just self-referential. It is the _name_ chosen for such containers which is misleading. It must be said that they are misleading to those who understand the literal meaning of those acronyms. Apart from that there may be perfectly understandable reasons why a producer may want to (deceptively) downgrade his/her own wine (because of the increase in technical freedom, for instance).

Partly. Italies terroirs and grapes together are more interesting to me than either one alone.

Though I have had Brunello, I was never motivated to try a Super-Tuscan. The concept makes little sense to me. Feel free to try one, though.

Perhaps. If you look at it from a marketing standpoint, European wines are at a disadvantage in the US. Look at the labels! F_____, Italian, German terms that the purchaser needs to know. WHY? Why should he have to know what Azienda agricola means? I happen to know, but I am rather the exception.

Yes. I have been reading up on this lately, and it's quite complex. I don't understand it all. What does the consumer need to know to buy a good Nero d'Avola? How much does a local DOC add to my appreciation that the name of the producer does not? Santa Tresa Nero d'Avola is sold as IGT Sicilia, and I assure you it is well worth $32. Not every wine needs single-vinyard designations. What does a DOC like 'Ragusa' mean to the consumer, that "Avulisi: Nero d'Avola, IGT Sicilia" does not? How many names is a consumer going to recognize? Presumably, Santa Tresa knows how to make good wine. I don't give a damn whether it is DOC or IGT.

See: Brunello to Zibibbo: The Wines of Tuscany, Central and Southern Italy (Paperback) by Nicolas Belfrage

Apparently this kind of joint interest of you does not apply to other countries' grapes and/or terroirs, does it? May I ask you why.

Wow. You have had Brunello, though. Quite a prominent example of Tuscan cabernet, indeed. Or did you mention it because it is the only Tuscan wine you have had? Was this the case, on what basis are you challenging the notions implied in a so called (by Americans, mind you) super-Tuscan? I am seriously asking. I am curious about the kind of concepts that people may have about Tuscan wines, particularly people from more distant locations/traditions; and about the way these concepts, this perception I mean, develop and evolve.

For sure. As far as the rules are concerned, the framework is given by the EU legislation. Even much more than just a bare framework, lots and lots of EC regulations. No Italian peculiarity on this. Even DOC/DOCG etc are but an instance of more general "boxes" provided at EU level, having their counterpart in other EU countries.

If the purchasers are wine enthusiasts and like wines from a specific area they would know what those terms mean, and would find their way anyway, apart from names. If they are not, then other authorities would guide their shopping choices for sure, anyway. Those authorities are supposed to know for them (and if they are real authorities they do not mind educating their audience, so next time they know, too). I cannot see the problem.

Pretty much what needs to know to buy a good whatever. He or she needs to know which ones are the good ones. Am I loosing something maybe, I cannot see your point. Just try some. If you like what you drink, make a knot..if you don't try another one. Or ask advice. ..dunno.

Depends on the way(s) you approach wine, I guess. And of course on the particular DOC. If the DOC has no overall well definite style, then the information about the DOC just tells you that: where that wine is from. You may mind about it, or not. Again, depends on your approach. But even if the DOC was one with a more recognizable character, it would still depend on what you are after when drinking wine. The name of the producer itself might be of no interest at all, if you want the grape and nothing else.

It may not mean much now. Maybe it will in the future. If a bit of information is meaningless to you, just disregard it. Ignore it.

That makes sense. Anyway it is also interesting to know if a wine's origin is traceable or not, and where from. On the one hand you are saying reasonable things, on the other hand you have to admit the possibility that there are many other reasonable alternative things. For instance along with the consumer who (righteously) cannot recognize all those bloody producers and does not give a damn whether it is AOC or DOC or whatever, there is also the producer who (righteously) cannot follow all those bloody markets around, and does not give a damn whether it is from the far east or the far west or the far north or the far south that people buy the wine, as long as they do. Everybody stick to their slowly growing capital of tested knowledge, more or less.

I'm Italian.

No, as I said the whole concept does not make sense to me.

??? Brunello is pure Sangiovese. No Cabernet at all (officially).

No, but I drink very little Tusacn. Most Sangiovese wines do not appeal to me. Chianti Rufina and Morellino are exceptions, but other wines from other regions appeal to me even more.

It's not traditional Italian wine. Simple.

I happen to watch shopping behaviour in stores. Most people know only a few labels. Most people are not wine geeks like us.

I have many more favourites than I did 15 years ago, but there is a limit on how much work I am willing to put into shopping for wine..

I see. So, since you are Italian you are less forgiving about Italians departures from tradition than you are about others'.

I know you said so. Thas is why I asked this in the firs place.

I know, so why did you mention Brunello when I asked if you ever tried one of those super-tuscans you were talking about?

You do not like sangiovese. But you like even less the fact that Tuscans may want to make wine with other grapes. What can I say? you do not seem to like Tuscans fullstop.;-)

Very.

...

And sure enough, I am no wine geek either ;-) But I can't see the problems you say about labels, not one of preventing me from becoming a more aknowledged person, at least. If there is a "problem" is that Italian wine has changed a lot and is still changing. This makes it a bit trickier keeping track of things.