Are we wine snobs?

Hello good gentles all, The last few days have seen (in the wake of a perfectly legitimate and courteous question from a lady wishing to learn more) rise the spectre of wine snobbism. The possibility has been mentioned that so and so is a wine snob - others have embraced the term with sincerety. Of course the group is heterogenous. It contains francophils and francophobes, cork dorks and screwcap fans. There are members from New Zealand to Norway and beyond. Newbies come and all too often go, whether in pain and anger, or wonder and mystfication, or, having found out that it is preferable to get a life, they being, apparently , very useful to many things, some of which has nothing to do with wines whatsoever.

I wanted to look into the matter. To start with, what is a snob (I know what wine is)? Google-san-wa anata-no tomodachi-desu as I always say - and found that the roots that I had heard, that it was short for "sine nobilitas", i e, without nobility (which would have meant we were ALL snobs [1]) was, in fact, false, and that it apparently originally meant shoemaker. I am not aware of anyone on the group having proclaimed to be a shoemaker.

A snob is, then, "a person that adopts the world-view that other people are inherently inferior for any one of a variety of reasons including supposed intellect, wealth, education, ancestry, etc".

Do we do that? Does anybody here consider other people "inherently inferior" because of their taste in wines? Harsh words, dangerous grounds ... Anybody tempted to share their thoughts?

Cheers

Nils Gustaf [1] Except Lord St Helier of course

Reply to
Nils Gustaf Lindgren
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"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" wrote in news:8GUSg.17953$ snipped-for-privacy@newsb.telia.net:

A serious post from someone who clearly views the world in a reasoned and reflective manner. We should always strive to show such intellectual honesty and integrity.

I can think of only one person currently posting that would seem to fit this description. I suspect we can all recognize intolerance and radicalism when we see it.

John

Reply to
John Gunn

G'day Nils.

Wine snobbery in itself seems to vary depending on where the speaker hails from, and who is doing the listening. There also seems varying degrees of "snobbery", some quite acceptable, some pretentious clap trap.

I do see plenty of "wine snobbery" in this Ng, most of it leaning towards the acceptable, as the majority of wine discussions in this forum happen to be regarding French wines, by folks I respect and admire for their knowledge. Over the years I have learnt so much regarding the mysteries surrounding certain appellations and the blends used in producing them. French wines and the consumption of them are considered "snobby" by Australians, (acceptable snobbery however, and really only reflects the low level of knowledge of "frog

- juice" to Aussies), yet to wax lyrical about a specific patch of dirt combined with a specific vintage in respect to a wine which we would not even know the varietal(s) used to make it, is considered snobbery. It becomes real wine snobbery (and perhaps prompting a direction to the exit door...:>)) if the speaker infers his colleagues are stupid for not knowing what the speaker had stated. Snobbery is often claimed by those who are simply envious of the speakers knowledge, however, the opposite can be applied, when a speaker is talking way over the levels of knowledge of the listener(s), in a "See how clever I am way".

Wine however is not the only topic that reveals these types of characteristics.... it is simply a human trait.

hooroo from the "Roo"....

Reply to
Matt S

Nils:

I am a snob about some things, but not a wine snob. What I find puzzling (actually distressing) is that people are being taught that they need to 'learn' about wine. Do people need to 'learn' about chicken? About steak? Do we gather in groups at a restaurant, to be given tiny pieces of meat that we chew briefly and spit out, nodding to one another, muttering about "barnyard notes"? No. then why do it with wine? Wine is nothing but a beverage to accompany food, for the most part. If you find a recipe and try it and like it, you make it again, right? If you open a bottle of Prima Donna Chianto Classici Preserva

1997, and like it, what more is there to say or do? Liking or not liking is all there is to it. You buy more if you like it, and avoid it if you don't. It is only because Americans have grown up up in a Puritanical society, in which allcohol is viewed as an evil, that there is any reason to be unfamiliar with wine drinking. Europe has made wine for millennia, and it is a natural, integral part of European life, from Greece to England. You won't find Italians or Hungraians or Spaniards or F________ needing to be 'educated' about wine. It's quotidian. The contadino (peasant) drinks his daily draught when he gets home from the fields and digs into his pasta and sausages. There's nothing special or snobbish about it. It's just wine!

In America, we have to take a class for everything. The culture is one of cultivated stupidity. Talking heads on infomercials tell us we need to know more about this or that, that our health care system is suppressing truths about natural healing (utter rubbish), that we are ugly if we are bald (I'm bald and have no hang-ups about it), etc. There are cooking shows and exercise shows. BLAH BLAH BLAH. People are told everything except that they have a brain of their own, and are capable of making their own decisions. If Jenna had been raised in Italy, F_____, or Germany, she would have never posed the question she did. Of course, she would never have dreamed of drinking wine "with the girls" in the way she describes: It would be inconceivable.

You don't need to be 'educated' about wine, or visit vinyards as a tourist. I find this puzzling behaviour. You just go to the store and buy a few bottles. You drink them. You like them or not. The ones you like go into your cellar again. That's all there is to it. No speeches, essays, or "tasting notes" are necessary. Only enjoyment matters.

Reply to
UC

Well, yes, actually. Ever eaten chicken made by somebody who could stand to learn about chicken?? More to the point, cooks =do= have to learn about spices and herbs and seasonings and accompaniments.

Because there are few kinds of chicken, a few more kinds of meat, but lots of kinds of wine. I bet you could list a hundred different kinds of wine from Italy alone, off the top of your head.

Probably true. In Europe people learn about wine too, they just start younger, and by the time they are of salary age, they already know enough. Americans aren't that lucky, and we have to make up for it.

That part is all about money. We don't need makeup either, but girls are taught (falsely) that they look ugly without them.

Where's the profit in that kind of revolutionary thinking? :)

Well, if you already know about wine, that is true. If you don't, then that is false.

Jose

Reply to
Jose

I am relatively new to wines and this NG. What I find here is often hard nose language when just trying to relay their feelings. I'm sure most find the impersonal security of not facing folks as emboldening. While only a few would be so harsh in a face to face encounter (can you see how bar fights begin? ha). If I harden my heart and wade through the abuse, I find good education. If I was sensitive, I'd leave. This doesn't mean those that like to be smart-asses should continue their abuse, but that as for most of life - ya wade through the swamp of folks to find things that make you wiser. I have learned from the most boring snob at a dinner party, if you just wade through it.

Good note, Nils,not sure it will make a difference, but was nice to hear someone say it. DAve p.s. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure we are all snobs on some aspects of life - for me, drivers with cell phones. Don't get me started.... haha

Reply to
Dave Allison

What I mean is we don't need to be 'educated' about wine, in an elaborate, ritualized, manner. We don't need to be 'educated' about walking, though we do need to 'learn' how to walk. We need to learn about wine the way we learn to walk, through experience, not through pretentious 'classes' and reviews. You didn't take a class to learn how to walk, did you?

Reply to
UC

I agree. And I think most folks here agree too. I also think that most folks here are not "educating themselves in an elaborate ritualized manner", but rather, are just having a good time with wine. You seem to get very militant about the word "tasting", but I doubt that what people are doing when they are tasting wine is what you make it out to be. That girl who started this whole thing because she was surprised at how the flavors didn't go with what she was having... she was just trying to have some fun with the girls, and learn something at the same time. I highly doubt that they were doing anything like what professional tasters do.

I didn't. But such classes exist, and are not as fruity as they sound. Have you heard of Alexander technique? Feldenkrais?

Jose

Reply to
Jose

"UC" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

Michael,

It might be wise for you to review Nils' definition carefully. I know that is not your strength, but clearly you qualify.

Reply to
John Gunn

Well, as much as I hate to admit it, I think UC actually has something to say here. I am 63 and have been drinking wine for 50 years, more or less. In my family, wine was considered a food, and paired with the food much as the starch was paired with the vegetable and meat. It was good or not. (there was much less choice in the "old" days. On the other hand, with lots of choice, one needs a vocabulary to communicate the characteristics of a find to others who enjoy wine, so they might decide if they want to try it for themselves. This gave rise to the vocabulary that many attribute to wine snobbishness. I don't think fluency in wine terms makes one a snob. To me, a (wine) snob is one who would not buy a wine that one has not heard of or hear that it was good, and would not be caught dead drinking and enjoying a good wine that cost under $10.

And I still "taste" wines before I buy for the cellar to "drink."

Reply to
Ronin

I am sure you are quite mad. I am militantly anti-wine snob. The core of snobbery is actually ignorance. I shop for wine frequently. I see people buying wine. I can recognize the snobs, many of whom actually know little about wine other than what they read in the wine magazines. The affluent ones buy stuff like Opus One, etc. They buy according to 'points' ratings. I witness it myself. I feel sorry for these chumps. Many of the wine shops around here offer wine 'tastings'. Do I ever attend these? No. I am opposed to the practice, and militantly so. Is that "wine snobbery"? I think not. It's reverse snobbery, if anything. When I visit shops, if a clerk tells me "this wine earned 93 points in the Spectator" I immediately make it clear that that is not the way to talk to me if he wants to make a sale. I don't give a shit how many 'points' Parker or Anderson gives it. What matters is what I think of it. I'll not be swayed by magazine reviews. I learned this the hard way. Often, Vietti wines receive rave reviews in the wine press. Every bottle of Vietti wine I have tried has been crap. After 4 or 5 purchases, all of which were substandard, I dismissed Vietti wine as plonk. End of story. Who knows what 'persuasion' is used to get those wine ratings?

Reply to
UC

Ich bin ein Winesnob (I am a wine shoemaker)

As noted in our periodic courtesy reminders: "No one is superior (In My Humble Opinion) based on either the simplicity or elegance of what they eat or drink. Isn't this group big enough for someone to have Shiraz with BBQed chicken and another to have rack of lamb with a fine Pauillac? Does it somehow offend you to read about a meal you wouldn't eat yourself? If someone says that they will not drink certain types of wines, don't waste your time worrying about their opinions of those wines, listen to those that do. "

I personally enjoy posting notes from a great QPR wine like the '04 Heretiques (last night, yum) or the Pepiere Muscadet as much as a great mature Bordeaux. But I do take exception to the idea that "all wines are equal." If there is any point to having a wine newsgroup, it is for people to voice opinions on wines (regardless of price), pairings, travel, etc. That's not snobbery.

Reply to
DaleW

Of course not all wines are equal. The quality of wine usually corresponds quite closely to its price. Not always, but usually. Speaking of my own experience with Italian wines, I have had very few wines over $20 that were not good. I have never had a bottle over $30 that was not excellent.The most remarkable wines I have had recently are the Avulisi Nero d'Avola by Santa Tresa ($32) and the Patriglione by Taurino ($40) I cannot describe the flavours. I don't understand the vocabulary, even after reading about wine for decades. All I know is that these are big, intense, complex wines. You don't get this kind of extraction cheap.

Reply to
UC

... and think yourself superior because of it. Thus...

No, the core of snobbery is pretention - making of something what it isn't, and thinking (or portraying) yourself as superior because of it.

So, how do you know what to think of a wine you haven't had?

Yanno, it's sort of like going to the movies. A new movie comes out, and you haven't seen it. Will you go see it? Obviously, after you've seen it, you'll know whether or not you should have spent the time, but that is not useful information any more. Among the alternatives are the equivalent of Parker (reviewer comments). I may not agree with reviewer comments, and I think that there are some reviewers who are buffoons. I don't pick a film because a reviewer said "two thumbs up", nonetheless I find the reviews useful.

Theaters also host "tastings". In fact, they foist them upon the audience before the main feature. While it is true that any given scene in a movie needs to be appreciated "with food", that is, along with the surrounding scenes, and in the previews such scenes are taken out and reassembled in some other sequence. However, having seen many such tastings, and later, seen the entire movie "with food", I have learned how to correlate the two. Having done so, I find movie tastings to be useful too.

So you disagree with the reviewer. So you even disagree with Parker. So, like me, you don't revere them as gods. I don't revere Siskel and Ebert as gods either, but I still taste movies, and I still read reviews, and I still find that it's a better way to pick flicks than looking at the titles alone.

I present to you a bottle of Domaine Chartruse Le Feet 1994. The bottle is somewhat short, with a pronounced shoulder. The label consists primarily of the name of the wine ("Chartruse Le Feet"), an indication that it's a blend of Cabernet, Petit Syrah, Pinot Noir, Nebbiolo, and Cabernet Franc, and a picture. This shows a pastoral scene showing two young girls in a field; there is a barrel in the field and the two girls are barefoot and dressed in off-white peasant clothing. One is blond, the other isn't. The wine comes from Monterrey from a small vintner neither of us has ever heard of. The bottle is dark green, and one presumes it's a red wine. It is sealed with a stopper of some sort, and there is a foil seal around the top of the bottle.

Is it any good? What would you drink it with? Is it worth the $22.50 price tag?

Jose

Reply to
Jose

But those who have to put down others are actually insecure about what they know.

Yeah, right. I'll try something if the seller has sampled it and gives it high marks, because I know I can rely on his judgement. Magazines are worthless. If a clerk has read a magazine and quotes the rating to me, I immediately clarify my position to him on such an approach: don't try that with me. I find it insulting, really, that some young punk quotes a magazine at me. If you have not sampled it, I don't want to hear about it. Gambero Rosso's "Italian Wines" book is always a good guide. They are based in Italy and know Italian wine types. American magazines are worthless for Italian wines. They don't understand them at all.

Yes. Often, the recommendation of a reviewer means that it should be avoided at all costs.

Not sure I find the analogy valid, Jose.

That's why I stick with Italian wines. I get to know the types and producers over time. I look in Gambero Rosso's "Italian Wines" book for guidance if I encounter something I with which I am completely unfamiliar.

Reply to
UC

"UC" wrote in news:1159540787.177822.121040 @i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Unfortunately, you didn't read or recall the definition that was posted. Like so many other times, you simply state what you want to be true.

Gambero Rosso's "Italian Wines" book is always a good

There are, of course, several ironies here. The first is that the key writer for Gambero Rosso is an American not an Italian. The second is that until recently he was the same person who reviewed Italian wines for Robert Parker. The third is that Gambero Rosso has a reputation for liking international styled wines with prominent oak rather than traditional Italian wines.

Reply to
John Gunn

I understand that this is a group of reviewers, located in Italy, mostly of Italian birth.

Reply to
UC

Oh, who's that?

Very true. Sad to say, it is the guide edited by Slow Food with Gambero Rosso...

Reply to
Mike Tommasi

Correct.

The regions of Italy are split randomly between the guys at Gambero Rosso magazine and the guys at Slow Food.

Reply to
Mike Tommasi

Also note that the 1, 2 or 3 glasse are awarded relative to the region, so a 3 bicchieri from Piemonte is not on the same scale of values as a 3 bicchieri from Lazio. And this is really unfair.

Reply to
Mike Tommasi

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