Basis for 55 degrees(F) optimal storage temperature

Salut/Hi Leo Bueno,

le/on Wed, 05 Oct 2005 11:17:13 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

I've not heard of any such studies, though can I ask you if you've done a search on Google?

My personal opinion is that 55 (12.8C for the rest of the world) is significantly too warm for long term optimum aging. I'd dispute "conventional wisdom" or even that this storage temperature IS conventional wisdom.

No, I have not done a search on Google. However, I have minded the question for some time now while reading about wine. All authors seem to have taken for granted the idea that there *is* an optimal storage temperature, somewhere between 50[F] and 60[F].

As an aside, I am inclined to do a non-scientific survey of climate-controlled wine storage facilities in the US inquiring as to their storage temperature (and humidity) and as to why they picked that particular temperature.

The 55[F] figure in the original message (and thread title) is not set in stone. I am inquiring generically about the basis for setting the "optimal" storage temperature, whatever figure is proffered to be so.

Yes, storing wine at its freezing or boiling temperatures is intuitively and obviously not a good idea. However, has anybody bothered to compare wine stored at, say, 50[F], 55[F] and 60[F]?

My concern is with the dictum (or is it gospel?) that wine should be stored at temperature X--which, as I mentioned, is generally pegged between 50 and 60[F]. My hunch, and that's all it is, is that there is very little evidence backing up the proposition that temperature X is optimal.

Thus the query: show me the data!

-- ================================================Do you like wine? Do you live in South Florida? Visit the MIAMI WINE TASTERS group at

Leo

You might like to check out:

Additionally I would question what is actually meant by "optimal" in the context of storring wine. What is being optimised, and who is to judge?

Here are the results of my quick and dirty research.

The storage temperature listed are the ranges provided on each facility's web site (listed below the table). When only one figure was given (i.e., no range specified), it appears on both the low and the high end range column. Non-integer values were derived from Celsius to Fahrenheit conversion.

ENTITY TEMP-low TEMP-high Vintrust 58 58 East Bank Wine Storage 50 59 Marin Wine Vaults 55 57 Portland Wine Storage 55 55 Private Mini Storage 55 55 Horse Ridge Cellars 55 55 Seattle Wine Storage 55 55 The Wine Safe 55 55.8 Legend Cellars 57 57 Cellarit 57.2 57.2 Store-It 57.2 60.8 Stronbox Wine Cellar 55 55 AVERAGE 55.4 56.7

WEB PAGE

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Salut/Hi Leo Bueno,

le/on Wed, 05 Oct 2005 17:18:47 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

Thanks. Don't misunderstand me when I point out that all these facilities are in the USA. I certainly take the point that _in the USA_ these figures are general. Given that the cost of keeping a facility cool is related to the temperature difference between the target temperature and ambient, I wonder if this doesn't have something to do with it.

My only (non scientific) input here is that on the rare occasions when I've drunk a wine which has been stored at a steady cold temperature, it has seemed very young compared with the wines from the same year stored "normally". For this to have any serious evidential value, I'd have had to drink wines in parallel and I haven't. However, I HAVE had enough occasions when the storage has been an issue and when I've been looking out for symptoms of it. Maybe merely I found what I was looking for, though I don't think so.

I've not looked it up but I am sure that the majority of Bordeaux and Burgundy estate cellars are significantly colder than the figure you mention.

" am sure that the majority of Bordeaux and Burgundy estate cellars are significantly colder than the figure you mention. "

Significantly colder than 55°F? I don't think so Ian, at least not in Bordeaux.

As to Bordeaux cellars, this is from Robin Garr:

"As we toured the fabled Chateau Margaux in Bordeaux's Medoc region last week, our guide, Tina Bizard, turned a corner and pointed to a room guarded by sturdy iron bars and heavy locks: The chateau's wine cellar!

Unlighted, cool, frankly a bit on the musty side, the long room didn't seem much to look at, at first. But as we pushed our noses up to the spaces between the bars and stuck our camera lenses through, it became clear that treasure rested here. Not only Margaux's own vintages were stored on these thick, black and mold-crusted stone and concrete shelves, but some of the best wines of the winery's neighbors, including such storied names as Mouton, Latour and Lafite.

Some of these bottles had been lying there for decades, even a century or more, in a room that had been discreetly walled off during World War II in a successful effort to keep the Nazi forces that had occupied the region from pillaging it. Just tantalizingly out of arm's reach, one bin held 19th Century Margaux from the Civil War or earlier ... 1868,

Wines more than 150 years old ... surely, for such an antique to have any chance of survival, it must have been kept under the most pristine conditions.

But this might surprise you: While the chateau's cellar has surely proven itself more than adequate for storing fine wines, it stops well short of the kind of temperature- and humidity-controlled perfection that many modern wine enthusiasts might consider mandatory.

Like many Bordeaux producers, Margaux's sprawling chais are neither heated nor air-conditioned. They rely on thick, windowless stone walls and the region's naturally temperate climate to hold year-round temperatures within a range that's safe for wine.

But high-tech precision is not an issue, said Bizard, adding that seasonal temperatures in the chai vary from as low as 12C (53F) in the winter to a summer high of 19C (66F), with humidity high enough to coat every surface - including the walls, the shelves, wine bottles and their labels - with molds in shades from black to green to gray.

If you're inclined to fret overmuch about keeping wine under perfect conditions that never vary from 55F (13C) or 70 percent humidity, there may be a lesson here at Chateau Margaux: Do protect your liquid assets from high or low extremes or sudden, dramatic shifts in temperature; and if you can't avoid high humidity, give your bottles a quick wipe every now and then. But bear in mind that Margaux's cellar has been good enough to store a ration of its nectar at ambient temperatures since 1848."

As to US vs. European conditions, Michael Pronay might have 50°F natural conditions, but the norm in London seems to be 55°F to 60°. BBR claims 14°C (57°F). Jamie Goode (wineanorak.com) has an article re storage conditions at London City Bond warehouses:

"Barking and Tilbury were originally built as chill stores, which means they are well insulated. They also still have functional cooling facilities. ‘We could haul down the temperature to whatever we wanted’, says Pearson, ‘but this would cost a lot, and the wine trade won’t pay for it.’ Although the temperature in these units is not actively controlled, the maximum last summer at Tilbury, for example, was 16 ºC." "Octavian is one of the most well known warehousing facilities in the wine trade. It’s an underground facility formerly owned by the Ministry of Defence, and was originally used for storing and making armaments. Because the storage area is 90 feet underground, it sits at a steady 13 ºC all year."

Glynnis (sp?) Castle is the exception, not the rule.

Salut/Hi DaleW,

le/on 5 Oct 2005 13:26:47 -0700, tu disais/you said:-

Well, well, well, thanks very much Dale. I can see I'll have to re-adjust my views on this. And yet .... it's not as if I've never visited a cellar and I've shivered!

I had heard that people speak of 57 degrees because it's the average underground temperature in most of France (and the northern US too)-- so if you have a below-ground cellar such as in Burgundy, Bordeaux, Champagne, etc. the wines are stored around 57 degrees.

Simply put, in general chemical reactions speed up at higher temperatures and slow down at lower ones. However some speed up/slow down faster than others.

We can easily demonstrate that too high a storage temperature is bad. Bad because we define what wine is supposed to taste like as Not tasting like what it tastes like if you store it in the attic for a hot summer.

As far as I know, nobody has shown any ill effects of storing wine at

The only thing I think we do know is that too hot is bad. That said, one of the best wine experiences I've had was with a bottle of inexpensive Bordeaux (Chateau Falfas, less than $15) that I left in my car for an afternoon (in the summer in NY) then cooled down to drinking temp. It was wonderful. Would I repeat the experience? Let's just say I consider myself lucky and doubt I could do it again.

Part of what makes this debate interesting is that we define "good" as tasting like what we're told wine is supposed to taste like. So a "properly" stored Bordeaux is what we're judging our wine against. When people start to prefer a different wine (as California cabs have been lately) vs. what the "objective standard" is, popular opinion changes and we have a different standard against which we judge newcomers.

Shaun Eli

Sounds like the consensus is that wine should be stored at somewhere between 55 and 59[F], however, there is no indication that the question has been addressed *empirically*.

Yes, every GD wine book one reads says so, but I suspect that the guy or gal writing the book got the figure from another guy/gal who got it from another. . . . but that nobody looked at the question critically.

So what if the average temperature in a Bordeaux cellar is 57[F]? Why don't we pick the average temperature in a *Burgundy* cellar instead? Does that necessarily mean that 57[F] is the optimal temperature--whater it is we are trying to optimize, as another writer in the thread mentioned?

This discussion is leading me to think that 55 or 57 or 59[F] or whatever are values plucked out of the air.

Again, is anyone aware of any *evidence* that indicates the optimal range to be somewhere between 55 and 60[F]?

I don't think it would be terribly difficult to set aside bottles of a moderately priced wine of reasonably good quality and store batches of, say, 30 bottles each at 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 75 and

Until I see some studies like that, I remain skeptical (or is it sceptical, in Brit speak?) about the idea that wine should be stored at 55[F], of 57 or 59, or whatever the gurus say is the "correct" temperature.

I do not doubt the "correct" temperature is to be found somewhere between freez>Salut/Hi DaleW,

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So you vant know vats dis 55F for kipping vine. It comes from Morris Broadbent whho had a store & ice house. Dere waz a terrible heat wave in London and he ordered too much ice & when it cooled down he could move it. Luckily his nephew Garth wrote on wine for da London Gavotte Picayune--dis was about 1811...so he wrote, yuse must store yer vine at 55F so you get da most plezure--dis is for clarets--whites get a little more chill. Soon the Broadbents were out of da old ice & dats da vey it was, vere's the noisse, i got such angina,,,,,

Parker published an article discussing his own wine storage. He had stored a significient quanty of wine at a relatively high temp(mid

Pure speculation follows:

Storage of wine is, or at least should be, based on what will happen to the wine after its storage time, and the length of that time. If the wine is to be consumed at its "optimum" point of development, after a storage time determined by the owner of that wine, then the 55F temp seems to be a common one. Maybe, like the decisions on what grapes to plant in the Medoc was determined by centuries of experimentation.

If the wine is to be stored, in hopes of selling it for a much higher price at some time well into the future, than a lower temp might well be considered, i .e. 45F is often cited as "ideal" as this lower temp will retard "development" of the wine, and allow for a greater time in cellar, before it reaches its " optimum" point.

Where 55F came from, one can only conjecture. Perhaps years of observation. However, finding a wine's apogee of development is a very personal thing. I may like my CA Cab at 5yr @ 55F, while you might like them much younger, or very much older. Let us know if you can find a true "basis" for the temp question, though, as it might prove interesting, just as this thread has.

Hunt

I've cited a page here before by some guy (has a page called winechemist, winescientist, winesomething) who did some minor studies and some analysis of the process. Does anyone have that bookmarked? He was in California (page had tasting notes too).

I think that for most of our tastes, it's pretty clear that wine that are stored above 65°F doesn't age was well as those stored below. Chemical reactions tend to double at differences of 10°C (18°F). But that's not uniform, and wines stored at 70° tend to develop faster, but not uniformly. The fruit seems to be gone before the tannins integrate, and before most secondary notes occur . And I think that results from places like Glyniss Castle (I know that I'm misspelling that,someone help!) show that very cold temps (45°F & below ) lead to glacial aging- but who wants to save a big Bordeaux for

Sure, someone could do intensive studies with lots of bottles. But there probably would never be a consensus- you're depending on tasters' preferences. And Bordeaux might develop differently from Burg which might develop differently from CdP which.....And maybe aging at 60° is better for a 10yr old Bdx than at 55°, but at 20 years the preference is reversed.

I have a passive cellar, goes (slowly) from 50° to 66°F seasonally. But if I was using active cooling, I'd probably choose 55° to 57°F as a safe average in the middle.

"DaleW" skrev i melding news: snipped-for-privacy@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... . And I think that results from places like Glyniss Castle (I know that I'm misspelling that,someone help!)

Glamis

helped? Anders :-)

Salut/Hi DaleW,

le/on 7 Oct 2005 11:36:53 -0700, tu disais/you said:-

Sorry, no.

I've not done tests as such, but I agree.

Can we - for the sake of this discussion, limit ourselves to RED wines. Dry whites cvan also age, as can sweet ones, and I suspect that they have different processes.

RIGHT!!!! I think you've gone to the nub of the question.

I may be entirely wrong here, but I've certainly read that for a wine to age and remain wine, it MUST have acidity and tannins present in sufficient quantity. For it to be drinkable when the tannins have been fully integrated (perhaps polymerised might be a better word, though I doubt it describes _everything_ that happens) it must have a great dollop of fruit. Certainly that's accepted wisdom. It is my opinion that the differing processes of aging may well proceed at different speeds, at different temperatures - Mark could come in here and guide us...

The crucial question then to aging, is "What do you want"? Are you seeking to age a wine in such a way that its potential for excellence as a balanced drink can be realised? Are you seeking to keep a wine as long as possible to be able to sell it at a high price? Are you seeking to keep the wine just as long as is needed to have it a very acceptable drink? And so on. I suspect that the storage temperatures and more especially the annual temperature range may need to be different to achieve this different ends.

Glamys. (Sorry, I didn't answer before, Anders got it right of course)

to save a big Bordeaux for

No one, but on the other hand, is it not possible that such storage could allow a great wine, such as (not entirely innocently) Ch Haut-Brion 1945 to really get as good as it possibly can at the end of 50 or 60 years? In fact, I'd suggest that the loss of tannins is - to some extent - almost secondary to aging. In my opinion - and I freely admit I'm speculating in much of what I'm saying - tannin plays the role of a kind of preservative agent, perhaps absorbing oxygen before it has time to act on the fruit. That's why it's presence is essential. I'm trying to tie in the fact that we know that there's some VERY slow ingress of oxygen - even under Stelvin - driven by changing temperatures from one part of the year to the other.

This would explain why wines lost in bricked up cellars deep underground can emerge 40 and 50 years later almost as fresh as if they had just been bottled. (I've had one such, a Chevalier Montrachet 194? drunk in the early '90s yeah, I know it's a white).

And their experiences. Our oeno-culture has changed. When I was young, it was relatively normal for "the ruling classes" to drink very old "claret" in the UK. They had been to Oxbridge colleges where it was normal to keep red Bordeaux for 40 or 50 years. They went to "gentlemen's clubs" where the same applied, and it was perfectly normal for them to have a deep cellar under their houses. The UK is a temperate country, where extremes of temperature à la Burgundy or USA are virtually unknown - you can grow semi-tender plants more easily in Western Scotland than you can here, for example. So that implies that a deep passive cellar in the UK will have both lower and more stable temperatures year long than in Burgundy or in much of the US. For example, my house in Harlesden in London was built in the 1880s as part of a development by a builder from him and his family to live in. I had an underground cellar in the NE corner of the house, with slate "shelved" brick wine bins. Temperatures there varied between 6C and 12C. And remember this wasn't a house for an aristocrat, or even a professional person.

I can't help it, Dale, but I'd choose 50!!! Despite all I've read and the fact that I shouldn't really be planning to slow down the aging of my wines to a snail's pace, if I want to still be alive to enjoy them.

The chemical formula uses degrees Absolute, and the 10 degree approximation.

If one wishes to slow down the reaction, why stop at 55 F? If 55 is good, is not 45 better, and 33F best?

My guess is the cellars in some big important areas are about 55 F, so that has become the choisen temp.

I keep my cellar a bit cooler...about 50 degrees and maintain a high humidity as well over over 60%.

Why....cause I want long lived wines that mature and age in the bottle. Also cause some of my wines won't get much better and this will slow their development.

I subscribe that the cooler the cellar above freezing the slower the maturity.

Sounds to me like some of you should also be cellared :-)

"why stop at 55 F? If 55 is good, is not 45 better, and 33F best? "

Because at that point there is virtually no development. Some of the wines from Glamis Castle (thanks Anders!) were reportedly brutally youthfully tannic at 80 years old. Most of us age wines to drink in our lifetimes.

I think anything 45F and under doesn't seem to allow for development. At 50F (Michael Pronay's temp, I believe) wine seems to develop slowly and evenly. A steady 60°F cellar (or a passive cellar with 55F t0 65F range) seems to allow for faster development without a big loss in quality. Anything higher seems to sacrifice some complexity.

I'm fine with what anyone wants to do with their cellar, and personal circumstances (age and target drinking dates, what kind of wines one cellars, etc) can make good arguments for anything from 50F to 63F, probably. But unless one's goal is stasis, I don't think 40F is a good storage temp.

Definitely not true for Champagne. The houses with the really deep cellars (ancient Roman quarries) have 10°C (50F) all year round. Krug at 14°C (57F) is slightly warmer.

M.