Batch to batch variability

The observation by Cwdjrxyz about the possibility of batch to batch variability being responsible for reports of oxidized 1975 Mouton got me thinking about this issue generally.

I have in the past opened bottles side by side specifically to look for inter-bottle variability, which I have readily found and other experienced tasters confirmed. This is a no-brainer given that sometimes one bottle will be clearly corked while others are not; all it takes is one tainted cork.

Variability can be attributed of course to several other factors. Because I have purchased the test bottles from the same retailer, storage and handling can be likely ruled out.

So, that leaves me to wonder how significant batch to batch variability is.

Intuitively, a winery that makes 185,000 cases of a product (e.g., the

90-point Wine Spectator rated 2000 Columbia Crest Chardonnay Columbia Valley Grand Estates) cannot make the stuff in one try.

So, intuitively again, no matter how hard the wine makers try, they cannot produce batches that are identical.

Which then leads to the question, is the wine in each batch really the same stuff?

There have been tasting notes for some bottles of Mouton 75 that proved >a bit oxidized. Of course, at 30 years, some bottle variation is to be >expected. I do not know if the less good bottles had been stored >properly, if they had a cork problem, or if Mouton 75 was bottled in >several batches that may not have been quite the same.

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Reply to
Leo Bueno
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Leo Bueno wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

Leo, the answer is in general yes, and in specific, well, no. The basics are going to be the same and on average the grapes going into any given vat are going to be the same. I would suspect that during barrel ageing is the biggest source of difference with the charcteristics of the barrel for oxygenation, quality and age of oak etc. Basically, as I understand it, everything gets treated the same but everything is not identical leading to variation.

Reply to
jcoulter

In the past, many top Bordeaux wines were bottled over a considerable period of time. This does not seem to be as common anymore. Several types of grapes may be used to make red Bordeaux. Usually each type is kept apart until barrel aging is completed. Then it is decided how much of each wine to put in the final blend. Barrels not up to par or in excess of needs for the blend get sold as something else, perhaps as a second label, or are sold as bulk wine if really foul. On the other hand, many German wines are made in many batches. There can be several batches of auslese, for example. However every different batch must be submitted for evaluation and must display an AP number on the label that is given to that batch of wine. And a top batch of wine, such as a J.J. Prum Wehlener Sonnenuhr Long Gold Capsule auslese, can cost very much more than the "normal" batches of this wine.

Unless you have an accurate, complete history of the storage of a wine and who bottled it, all you can do is speculate about what may cause bottle variation. Bottle variation often becomes more apparent as wine ages. One only has to look at M. Broadbent's tasting notes for older top wines. He has tasted many top Bordeaux reds multiple times, and even the top wines can be rather variable. In the past it was quite common to ship red Bordeaux in barrel to the UK and other countries, where wine merchants bottled the wine when they thought it was ready. This introduces another very important variable for very old Bordeaux.

Reply to
cwdjrxyz

] ] Leo Bueno wrote: ] > The observation by Cwdjrxyz about the possibility of batch to batch ] > variability being responsible for reports of oxidized 1975 Mouton got ] > me thinking about this issue generally. ] >

] > I have in the past opened bottles side by side specifically to look ] > for inter-bottle variability, which I have readily found and other ] > experienced tasters confirmed. This is a no-brainer given that ] > sometimes one bottle will be clearly corked while others are not; all ] > it takes is one tainted cork. ] >

] > Variability can be attributed of course to several other factors. ] > Because I have purchased the test bottles from the same retailer, ] > storage and handling can be likely ruled out. ] >

] > So, that leaves me to wonder how significant batch to batch ] > variability is. ] >

] > Intuitively, a winery that makes 185,000 cases of a product (e.g., the ] > 90-point Wine Spectator rated 2000 Columbia Crest Chardonnay Columbia ] > Valley Grand Estates) cannot make the stuff in one try. ] >

] > So, intuitively again, no matter how hard the wine makers try, they ] > cannot produce batches that are identical. ] >

] > Which then leads to the question, is the wine in each batch really the ] > same stuff? ] >

] >

] > On 20 Nov 2005 16:34:20 -0800, " snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com" ] > wrote: ] >

] > >There have been tasting notes for some bottles of Mouton 75 that proved ] > >a bit oxidized. Of course, at 30 years, some bottle variation is to be ] > >expected. I do not know if the less good bottles had been stored ] > >properly, if they had a cork problem, or if Mouton 75 was bottled in ] > >several batches that may not have been quite the same. ] ] In the past, many top Bordeaux wines were bottled over a considerable ] period of time. This does not seem to be as common anymore. Several ] types of grapes may be used to make red Bordeaux. Usually each type is ] kept apart until barrel aging is completed. Then it is decided how much ] of each wine to put in the final blend. Barrels not up to par or in ] excess of needs for the blend get sold as something else, perhaps as a ] second label, or are sold as bulk wine if really foul. On the other ] hand, many German wines are made in many batches. There can be several ] batches of auslese, for example. However every different batch must be ] submitted for evaluation and must display an AP number on the label ] that is given to that batch of wine. And a top batch of wine, such as a ] J.J. Prum Wehlener Sonnenuhr Long Gold Capsule auslese, can cost very ] much more than the "normal" batches of this wine. ]

I can think of one Chateauneuf du Pape off-hand that bottles in different batches: Dom. du Grand Tinel. They keep a stock of older vintage unbottled, in large old oak vats, stored in a very cold room. These vats are then bottled up as the market will bear. The advantage is of course the availability of older wine kept in impeccable conditions; however this will not have the same characteristics as a well stored example of the initial bottling. I have tasted the '75 from the original run in mag, to my palate it was fresher than the same wine bottled in '90. If I understood correctly the blend was exactly the same, though.

-E

] Unless you have an accurate, complete history of the storage of a wine ] and who bottled it, all you can do is speculate about what may cause ] bottle variation. Bottle variation often becomes more apparent as wine ] ages. One only has to look at M. Broadbent's tasting notes for older ] top wines. He has tasted many top Bordeaux reds multiple times, and ] even the top wines can be rather variable. In the past it was quite ] common to ship red Bordeaux in barrel to the UK and other countries, ] where wine merchants bottled the wine when they thought it was ready. ] This introduces another very important variable for very old Bordeaux. ]

Reply to
Emery Davis

My two (euro) cents,

on june, 2005, I purchased two bottles of Mercurey "La Plante Chassey" 2002 Derain which I happened to love. One month later, I purchased a 12 bottles case from the very same retailer. Each bottle I have opened showed differently to those first bottles. And each bottle from the latest purchase has had some sort of carbonic in the mouth, which I feel annoying.

S.

Reply to
Santiago

Hola Santiago -

I've observed a similar effect in supposedly "still" wine before. Usually it's been due to malolactic fermentation in the bottle that wasn't completed in the winery.

Tom S

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Reply to
Tom S

"Tom S" wrote in news:9OGhf.24103$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net:

Hi Tom,

thanks for the explanation. Do you think there is some way to approach this? will it integrate with bottle time? decanting?

Best,

S.

Reply to
Santiago

Emery, I believe that the practice of "bottling on demand" was fairly commonplace in CNdP until fairly recently. I remember Parker railing against Clos du Mont Olivet for the practice perhaps 10 years ago. Still, 15 years is *long* time for a wine to spend en foudre.

Mark Lipton

Reply to
Mark Lipton

I suspect that you will have a lot of leakers in that case of wine, caused by the pressure that develops during ML that has no place to go. The wine will also throw a bit more sediment in the bottle during ML.

One of the first reds I ever tasted was the 1970 Van Loben Sels Oakville Cabernet. It suffered from the same affliction. The bottles were all leakers and the wine was slightly fizzy on the palate at first. After splash decanting and a bit of aeration the dissolved CO2 dissipated and the wine was really wonderful.

I'd say you'll need to decant the wine from whatever sediment is in there before serving. To get rid of the CO2 in such cases (as in the barrel sample of 2005 Chardonnay I'm sipping on at the moment) I use a Vac-U-Vin. Decant the wine into another, larger bottle, pump as much air out of the bottle as you can with the Vac-U-Vin, and tap on the side of the bottle near the bottom with a hard object, like a spoon or the back side of a knife. The sound waves in the wine will nucleate the release of whatever dissolved gases are in the wine and you will observe the wine to be bubbling and releasing gas to the vacuum. Pump some more gas out of the bottle and repeat a few times. Release the vacuum and serve.

BTW, this trick works much better on wine at room temperature.

Tom S

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Reply to
Tom S

] Emery Davis wrote: ] ] > I can think of one Chateauneuf du Pape off-hand that bottles in ] > different batches: Dom. du Grand Tinel. They keep a stock of ] > older vintage unbottled, in large old oak vats, stored in a very ] > cold room. These vats are then bottled up as the market will ] > bear. The advantage is of course the availability of older wine ] > kept in impeccable conditions; however this will not have the ] > same characteristics as a well stored example of the initial ] > bottling. I have tasted the '75 from the original run in mag, ] > to my palate it was fresher than the same wine bottled in '90. ] > If I understood correctly the blend was exactly the same, though. ] ] Emery, ] I believe that the practice of "bottling on demand" was fairly ] commonplace in CNdP until fairly recently. I remember Parker railing ] against Clos du Mont Olivet for the practice perhaps 10 years ago. ] Still, 15 years is *long* time for a wine to spend en foudre. ]

Hi Mark,

Yes, you'd think so. Actually I wonder if they still do this at Grand Tinel, since the price of CdP has gone through the roof. I haven't been there in a few years. Anyway that was certainly the practice.

One of my worst wine experiences ever came from an old barrel. A friend of mine had a connection in Bandol (sorry can't remember the domaine, I'm not sure it wasn't strictly home production anyway) who gave him a barrel of '87 in exchange for some art work. This was in '95 or so, IIRC. He passed by our then vacation house in the Drome with this in his trunk, and on the first night of the visit we consumed God only knows how many pitchers. The next day all 4 of us (seasoned campaigners all) were violently hung over, I mean really incapacitated. The smell of the stuff was enough to send me retching -- although thankfully I got over it a few days later! No more of that Bandol was consumed, although he left us many liters... The only similar reaction I've had was to an over-consumption of Southern Comfort, and that was as a teenager. (Come to think of it the smell of Southern Comfort still gives me the shivers today. Even the thought of it makes me a bit queasy...)

-E

Reply to
Emery Davis

How much of the nose goes up when you do this? I ask because when I pour leftover wine into split bottles (filling them) and try to pump down the half inch of ullage, I get bubbles right away, so I've refrained from doing that, figuring I'm sucking out the volitile organics.

Jose

Reply to
Jose

I'm sure you are, but only a very little bit. I don't worry about it.

Tom S

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Reply to
Tom S

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