Can Sparkling Wine From The U.S. Be Called Champagne?

As far as I see, all the Italian Zinfandel is being sold in the US. Is it time for Gallo and Bronco to market US made Primitivo (out of Zinfandel grapes) in Italy?

They may already be doing that, for all that I know. For my part, I'd like to see some *quality* Zinfandels from Ridge or Seghesio marketed to Puglia and Manduria so that they can see the heights that "Primitivo" can achieve in different terroir ;-)

Mark Lipton

Semantic mode on/

Surely, given that terroir is a mix of climate, soil and topography, it should be "with a different terroir" not "in"

pk

Good call. I'm enough of a pedant to appreciate the distinction.

Mark Lipton

They are now recognised as the same variety (as are Pinot Noir, Gris and Blanc), but they are unlikely to be the same clones of that variety, and may be totally different clonally. Irrespective of the legalities, I'd prefer it if the Italians stuck to the name Primitivo.

I think that is overstating the case, but certainly the better vintages of Nyetimber compare well with Champagnes of a similar price. And stylistically it is very similar.

Steve wrote on Wed, 19 Mar 2008 19:34:23 +0000:

??>> The name Zinfandel may be a synonym of Primitivo - and ??>> officially recognized by USA and EU - but its usage is ??>> definitely tied to a place, to the rich history and ??>> culture of wine in America. As an Italian I would never ??>> buy a wine from Puglia labelled Zinfandel.

SS> They are now recognised as the same variety (as are Pinot SS> Noir, Gris and Blanc), but they are unlikely to be the same SS> clones of that variety, and may be totally different SS> clonally. Irrespective of the legalities, I'd prefer it if SS> the Italians stuck to the name Primitivo.

Would you please expand on "totally different clonally" ? It has no obvious meaning to me.

James Silverton Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

I mean that the clones of Zin in California may be similar to each other, but not closely related to the clones of Pimitivo in Italy.

Zin and Primitivo have a common ancestor, but clonal selection in California and Italy could have effectively produced two very different grapes for practical purposes. In the same way that Pinot Blanc and Pinot Gris are practically different for example, despite the fact that they technically belong to the same variety.

It's pure speculation that the clones are very different, but I bet they are not the same clones both sides of the Atlantic. As far as I know no one has done the research.

But it could be that the differences between California Zin and Italian Primitivo might not be totally down to terroir.

This is too.

AFAIK: yes.

M.

Steve wrote on Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:38:14 +0000:

??>> Would you please expand on "totally different clonally" ? ??>> It has no obvious meaning to me.

SS> I mean that the clones of Zin in California may be similar SS> to each other, but not closely related to the clones of SS> Pimitivo in Italy.

SS> Zin and Primitivo have a common ancestor, but clonal SS> selection in California and Italy could have effectively SS> produced two very different grapes for practical purposes. SS> In the same way that Pinot Blanc and Pinot Gris are SS> practically different for example, despite the fact that SS> they technically belong to the same variety.

SS> It's pure speculation that the clones are very different, SS> but I bet they are not the same clones both sides of the SS> Atlantic. As far as I know no one has done the research.

SS> But it could be that the differences between California Zin SS> and Italian Primitivo might not be totally down to terroir.

I am still rather puzzled. A clone in genetics is an exact replica. Cloning, in horticulture and biology, produces an organism whose genetic information is identical to that from which it was created.

I would suspect that it is usual to grow new vines of Pinot Blanc and Pinot Gris etc. from cuttings. In this case, the DNA sequence for two cuttings is identical even if growers may try to select for a particular characteristic. I don't know how you can achieve this asexually. Genetics seems to be taking a beating :-) Since "clonality" is described as the ability to form clones or the ability to be cloned, it does not seem to describe a process of selection that might produce different varieties.

James Silverton Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

Did you read Bill's link to the WLDG discussion with Carole Meredith's explanation? " All clonal variation, on the other hand, arises as a result of rare and random somatic mutations (i.e., not sexual) that occur in all vines. Sometimes such a mutation has a visible or otherwise detectable (e.g. aroma difference) effect and a vine carrying it will be preferentially used for propagation wood for new vineyards. But often it is just chance that one mutation survives to the next generation of vineyards and another doesn't. The mutations accumulate over time and eventually clones diverge from each other."

Did you read Bill's link to the WLDG discussion with Carole Meredith's explanation? " All clonal variation, on the other hand, arises as a result of rare and random somatic mutations (i.e., not sexual) that occur in all vines. Sometimes such a mutation has a visible or otherwise detectable (e.g. aroma difference) effect and a vine carrying it will be preferentially used for propagation wood for new vineyards. But often it is just chance that one mutation survives to the next generation of vineyards and another doesn't. The mutations accumulate over time and eventually clones diverge from each other."

"Somatic" sounds rather mystical to me. Something is either a clone (exact replica) or it is not tho' two *cuttings* might differ. Perhaps to enlighten me, you know some references to scientific papers or published books by authors from, say, U. Cal, Davis, explaining these terms.

I think Carole has retired in last couple years from UC-Davis, but she is probably considered the top expert on grape genetics in the world.

DaleW> I think Carole has retired in last couple years from UC-Davis, DaleW> but she is probably considered the top expert on grape genetics DaleW> in the world.

I will have to search libraries for her books since of the two relevant ones available on Amazon, one is out of my range at $202 and the other is unavailable. Thanks.

Somatic or germline mutation refers to the random mutagenesis events that arise from chemical modification of DNA such as alkylation, gamma irradiation or enzymatic crossover events. The semantic difficulty here is that, as you note, cloning refers to asexual reproduction and so implies no change in genetic identity. What Prof. Meredith (Emeritus from UC Davis) means by this usage is "clonal variation," the explanation for how two clones, both of which arise from asexual reproduction of the same germline, can differ genetically. Somewhat off the topic, there is a growing field of epigenetics, the study of how gene regulation can alter genetic expression without altering the DNA itself. Most recently, epigenetic differences have been used to explain the differences encountered between "identical" twins (as described in a recent Science publication).

Mark Lipton