This is a little more in depth.
Genetically duplicates or not.....the wines smell and taste different to me. Why? The vines themselves? The terroir? The vineyard techniques or cellar techniques?
Bi!! wrote on Thu, 20 Mar 2008 08:37:44 -0700 (PDT):
??>> I will have to search libraries for her books since of the ??>> two relevant ones available on Amazon, one is out of my ??>> range at $202 and the other is unavailable. Thanks. ??>>
??>> -- ??>> Jim Silverton ??>> Potomac, Maryland- Hide quoted text - ??>>
??>> - Show quoted text -
B> This is a little more in depth.
B>
A Google Scholar search on Carole Meredith produced some interesting summaries and I will have to see if I can look at the full papers at a local university library when I have time. I will have to refresh my memory as to things like allele etc. Even my copy of Stryer's Biochemistry seems a bit sketchy there as to mechanisms.
James Silverton Potomac, Maryland
E-mail, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
You are right. Clones are genetically identical.
But I think in everyday usage, if you take a number of cutting from the same vine, they would be called clones - even if small mutations caused the cuttings to have slightly different DNA. Frankly no one would really know whether they are true clones or not - it was only recently, wasn't it, that the complete DNA sequence of a grape (a Pinot Noir) was published.
The different clones sold by nurseries would be more distinct, and would have documented properties.
Presumably vines also sometimes mutate into something totally different, at which point they would be destroyed - isn't that one of the possible consequences of viral infection?
Great Pinot Noir and Chardonnay can be grown in several different places, but great Burgundy by definition comes from Burgundy. And it's not just a French idea: Italian and Spanish wines are also frequently labeled by place.
That's true, but that's a straw man argument. I'm not arguing that names like Chablis, Champagne and Burgundy should be protected because they produce great wine (although they do) but because those names are, in essence, brand names for regions. I can't make tissue paper and legally call it Kleenex; why should I be able to make a red wine and call it Burgundy?
That's why there are sub-appelation and vineyard names. Do you not subscribe to the notion of "Rutherford Dust" or "Santa Lucia Highlands Pinot Noir"? Likewise, Musigny has a certain flavor profile, as does Richebourg. Those names were arrived at from many centuries of experience.
No, and where in my statement do you get that mistaken impression? My point is that certain place names are protected as equivalent to trademarks. Do you think that crabs from Florida should be able to be sold as Dungeness crabs? Should farmed salmon from Canada be sold as Copper River? Should California be able to sell its produce as Florida oranges?
Mark Lipton
Not a good analogy. If I buy 5 boxes of Kleenex I know that all will be the same. If I buy 5 bottles of Burgundy they will not all be the same unless I look at who made them and what vineyard, winemaker etc. Burgundy is not a brand name like Kleenex. It is an appellation although in the case of Burgundy is also describes the choice of grapes used but not the exact blending done.
I agree with noting that on the bottle. I like Reds from the Stags Leap region. But I do not feel Reds that come from that region should be labeled Stags Leap Wine.
You feel France etc. should but the USA shouldn't? Thats my point. Why is it ok in Europe but you don't feel it appropriate elsewhere?
With regards to Wine where is this done in the USA without it being trademarked by a particular wine producer? If it isn't, why not?
Dungeness refers to a species and not a region. They are found along the western coast from Alaska down into Mexico. The grapes used in Burgundy are not unique to the region nor a particular producer. Label the appellation correctly just as is done in the USA.
Nope and a wine made from grapes grown in New York can't label them as being from elsewhere.
The vast majoritiy of Burgundies are made from a single variety. Not that it affects your arguments otherwise I suppose.
French AOCs are not just defined by the place. It is also the grape varieties used, vineyard practice, yields and vinification.
Putting aside the issue of greatness, I'd say that in general Burgundy has a taste profile that is distinct from PN wines made elsewhere. I am thinking of the better generic Burgundies, and village level and upwards here.
They may not use such large print on the label, but use of California etc, and/or sub areas, is controlled. And respected by the EU.
Certainly to talk about the terroir of Burgundy or Bordeaux in a generic way is meaningless twaddle - the stuff of French marketing and little else. But the climate and winemaking practices are also controlled, and these contribute to the taste.
Not really sure what you are asking here. AOCs do not name blends after regions. They say that IF you want to call a wine Burgundy you have to follow a set of rules - including region, grapes, and many other.
What California growers want to do is up to them as far as I am concerned, providing they do not confuse the consumer by using names that have already been earmarked by others. They seem to be doing OK using variety names and AVAs and I see no problem with that.
Hi Miles, This argument of geographical naming protection was taken by the WTO (world trade org) and was mostly won on your arguments.
Personaly I disagree with the findings that Canada can go on producing Parma Ham even thought Parma Ham is NOT from Parma. Or San Marasno tomatoes grown in Canada.
Realize all of these and many more are the geographical component. If a town in Canada decided to change their name however to "Parma" shouldn't they be allowed to state Parma ham from Parma?
There is a Naples Italy, Naples Florida...and many more...
While I understand this ruling from WTO I do not personally apply it the same way to wine. But the majority do in the world. And unless there are treaties and respect given this debate cannot really change minds.
and Bourgogne Grande Ordinaire! But PTG and BGO together make up something like 2% of production, and way less than 1% of exports. Personally, even when I was brand new to wine, I didn't find European labeling confusing. And no one has ever suggested that US wines had to switch to European styled geographic labeling, to my knowledge.
err... Bourgogne Passetoutgrains? ;-)
Mark Lipton
I was surprised that it was that low, but you are right - if you include all Burgundy's production, including Beaujolais (which is a huge chunk of the total) and white wines. I was also surprised to see how little BGO is produced compared to PTG.
Actually we're getting close to defining just how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Oop......almost forgot ;-)
Bi!! wrote on Thu, 27 Mar 2008 07:54:30 -0700 (PDT):
On Mar 27, 9:44�am, Mike Tommasi wrote: ??>> st.helier wrote: ??>>>>> Mark Lipton wrote: ??>>
??>>>>> err... Bourgogne Passetoutgrains? �;-) ??>>
??>>> And "Mike Tommasi" wrote ......... ??>>>> err... Sauvignon de St Bris? ??>>>> err... Bourgogne Aligot�? ??>>>> err... Beaujolais? ??>>
??>>> His Lordship readily concedes - outside of Beaujolais, ??>>> small of amounts of Gamay (red) and in certain defined ??>>> areas, Aligot (white) are still grown, vinified, bottled ??>>> and sold �- �BUT .......... ??>>
??>>> All the above will be labelled according to the ??>>> individual labelling requirements: i.e. "Bourgogne ??>>> Passetoutgrains" or "Appellation Bourgogne Aligot� ??>>> Control�e". ??>>
??>>> My contention is that none of the abovementioned would be ??>>> *normally* termed Burgundy - either red or white! ??>>
??>>> Either or both of you may feel free to argue otherwise ??>>> ;-) ??>>
??>>> However, I am surprised that neither of you picked up on ??>>> my error �- Burgundy covers closer to 25,000 ha (60,000 ??>>> acres) ! ??>>
??>> Yes Beaujolais tends to be seen as a separate wine growing ??>> area, but surely M'Lawd the Burgundy Alley Goat is... ??>> Burgundy? And the Sauvignon de St Bris is, no doubt about ??>> it, Bourgogne, adminstratively and in wine terms... ??>>
??>> -- ??>> Mike Tommasi - Six Fours, France ??>> email link
B> Actually we're getting close to defining just how many angels B> can dance on the head of a pin. B> Oop......almost forgot ;-)
I thought the final answer there was that angels were dimensionless, so as many as you want! They aren't dimensionless but Champagne districts behave like angels :-)
James Silverton Potomac, Maryland
E-mail, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
Is that what a PIN number is? Is there a reason such counting has to be done discretely so nobody cab see you?
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