Can Sparkling Wine From The U.S. Be Called Champagne?

Well, the only real difference between the way wines are labelled in France is that in the areas which have been making world renowned wines for hundreds of years, the varieties aren't traditionally mentioned. In Burgundy which was the case you mentioned, given that almost anyone knows that Burgundy equates to "Pinot Noir" when red and "Chardonnay" when white, A wine that calles itself "Chambolle-Musigny" from Domaine Arnaud is going to be a village wine (since no vineyard is mentioned) from a particular grower, and the year will be mentioned. What's the problem?

Apart from some of the better ones from Walla walla, neither do I. But yet Merlots from Pomerol (and the other places I mentioned) can be world class wines. Which is my point that the area of production - the terroir - and what the grower makes of it is AS important - if not more so - than the variety. Yet the American naming system puts most of the emphasis on the variety. My view is that this is more limited than the European model where the variety is implicit in the area, and the _important_ information - like who made it and where and when are all on the label,

Not at all. Quite the reverse in fact. It assumes that a drinker knows that such and such a grape variety comes from a region and are prepared to make a small effort to choose the region they like and the grower they can trust.

No it's not. I said "like" not "better than". I'm seeking to contest your point that using the label "burgundy" as if it were valid for any Pinot Noir no matter where from, has no basis in reality. If there was much chance that one could taste an Oregon Pinot Noir and think it was a Burgundy, then you might have a case. But I don't believe one can. I've had lovely wines in the Willamette, and in California from PN, but I can't think of one that could be confused with a Burgundy.

That's entirely legitimate, but there's a long way between saying "I don't like Burgundy" and " There may very well be excellent 'Burgundy' style wines made outside the Burgundy region but marketing conventions make it difficult to gain in the publics eye. "

There aren't any that I've tasted. There are plenty of PNs, but they aren't either Burgundy or "Burgundy Style" You were plain wrong about France and Zinfandel, and I'm afraid you're plain wrong about the limitations of French wine naming.

I've often castigated French wine makers in Burgundy betraying their precious inheritance by making muck there. But at least french naming laws mean that with their name on the label, you can soon enough know the guilty parties and never buy their wine again.

Maybe, I wouldn't know. My exposure to wines from the USA is extremely limited, which is why I took a long (2 month) trip down the Western sde of the USA to try to get to know them better. I found some good wines, some bad wines and some awful wines. Just as one would do if visitiing Bordeaux, Burgundy or the Languedoc. Or Marlborough, Hawkes Bay, and Martinborough.

I'm the

they are better.

I've not. I'm not talking about quality, I'm talking about the passing off of one wine as another, when they aren't alike and about naming conventions.

ATB Fatty

Thats true but you do not see PN's called Willamettes and yet they generally have a style of their own. Thats my point.

So what? Would it not in fact be helpful to those consumers who had tasted such wines and liked the distinctive style to be able easily to recognise it again? That is very easy with French labelling surely — and implicitly on your own admission. What is more because the French AOC system forbids the use of any but an approved list of grape varieties there is little danger of a consumer picking up a grower‘s experiment with another wholly different variety.

But it goes far further than that in any case. As a generalisation French vineyards are very small by comparison with new world ones. That means that, to the reasonably experienced palate, the individual‘s interpretation of the needs of his vineyard, and of his aspirations for it, as well as how well he has achieved them, can and do vary enormously from those of his neighbours BUT they vary WITHIN a particular style or Appellation and not only should remain true to it but normally do so. If bottles were simply labelled with, for example, the grape variety without reference to the Appellation the consumer would not know the style. Chardonnay grown in the Languedoc is entirely different from Chablis; Corton Charlemagne is not the same as a Chardonnay from Uchizy. I have yet to have a Merlot/Cabernet Franc blend from elsewhere which could possibly be mistaken for good, or indeed any, Saint-Emilion or Pomerol. Eqaully within those each of those areas there are differnces of style and approach which all make for thefascination and enjoyment of wine.

The consumer new to wine will, without any real effort, soon learn which grape varieties he likes and move from there to the Appellation or Appellations the style of which he prefers. He will then become more selective with experience and if he is really interested he will move easily to a higher level of knowledge and begin to recognise within the Appellations the individual growers whose particular interpretation of the style he like best. If he is faced with a number of wines from other areas which have a wholly different style but still describe themselves as ”Burgundy” the less knowledgeable consumer will be confused and disappointed. Who gains by that except the dishonest grower not able to make a reputation for his own product who wishes to trade both on other people‘s reputations and consumer ignorance or gullibility? Why should a new world producer, even making only modest wine, not have the pride in his ”terroir• and his region to boast of it on the label? Why steal somebody else‘s thunder if your own is loud enough?

I simply do not understand what the problem is — each country has developed a system which, broadly speaking, suits it. No international system is likely to be better or more helpful and revision do not necessarily improve anythign — look at the new EU rules or the German revision of its wine laws. I defy anybpdy to say that either is pr wil bebetter than what went before.

Tim Hartley

Which merlot do you consider the better ones from Walla Walla. I love that appelation...

I agree with most of what you have said here. Like Politics, wine law/labeling is local.

However, I do think in support of Miles it takes a lot more education for people not understanding labels to understand the labels from France.

I remember years back buying the book Windows to the World(World Trade Center) to learn about some french labels, then Parkers Bordeau Book, followed by his Rhone book etc.

It is harder to understand and still today I occasionally get confused by some.

I do think the USA labels are less confusing for this reason.

If all Napa Wines are simply called Red Napa and not a mention of grape varietal we would all be confused. That is because they grow so many varieties we have not idea if it was a cab, merlot, sangio, pinot, barbera etc.

When its red and its Burgundy it is Pinot unless Beaujolais.... If white Chard unless states as Aligote'.

So, you do have to understand the cultural differences.

That said, when I go to France I spend 2-4 weeks getting spruced up on their language. Why, I want to enjoy their culture.

When I buy their wine here, I like to remember their culture. But I do think for many its difficult.

Well put Tim. One of the problems that we face in the US is that as marketers we tend to dumb everything down to it's lowest common denominator since most consumers today do not want to spend the time to get educated about what they are buying. So a wine from Napa labeled "Merlot" would more than likely be sold on the basis of price point rather than quality or QPR. With so much excess juice in the market today there seem to be more and more wines made with purchased juice or fruit with non discript names and no actual coorelation to anything except a catchy package or label and at different price points. The US model for labeling by varietal is basically meaningless.

. The US model for labeling by varietal is basically

Bill, I totally disagree. Its not like we say just this is Generic Cabernet.

We do have it from Valley to vineyard designates. If fact you are now starting to make Miles case.

Ours is not meaningless in any manner. If anything its more complete.

Richard wrote on Mon, 31 Mar 2008 13:29:34 -0400:

RN> Which merlot do you consider the better ones from Walla RN> Walla. I love that appelation...

.It must be one of the few places with a Federal Prison (the first, I seem to remember) and also wineries!

James Silverton Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

With all of the "generic" wines that we make today we might as well. I would trust that many, if not most, folks couldn't tell the difference between Rutherford Cab and Oakville Cab unless they already know who the maker is and where he/she sources his/her fruit or juice from. The Valley and vineyard designates are meaningless if the wines all taste the same. The reality is that we do say generically that a wine is Cabernet, Merlot, etc. Anything beyond that is a bonus. Would you like to explain the word "Meritage" to a European versus the designation "Red Table Wine"? But I think you're missing my point which is that most of our labeling practices are really about marketing and have little do do with information about the contents. The next time you're in your local wineshop just cruise the aisles and try to determine where a domestic wine is from just by looking at the front label. I think you'll be surprised how many wines you must pick- up and scrutinize to find out who made it, what's really in it, and where the juice is really from.

I used to be able to taste and pick out the Rutherford wines years back. Today, I will agree most are not really much different than the Stags leap district wines.

Not sure of the reasons. But our labeling is more complete and we do on back of most Meritage state the blend.

Now in my case I have studied and I adore most top tier Bordeaux and Burg wines. Just getting real familiar with Rhones in past 2-3 years. My cellars are now about 70% French at home and growing with the 2005 White Burgs. I agree and to my tastes French wines accompany meals more to my liking. I find them more complex, finessing and mostly more agreeable with foods. Also, more distinguishable by location and designation.

But our labels are more complete and I have had to explain to people that the blend in a Haut Medoc has the same grape varietals than a Pomeral /St Emillion wine...but one side is Cab Dominant the other is Merlot dominant. They after having a great Merlot Based such as Pavie, they stop saying, I don't drink merlot.

With all of the "generic" wines that we make today we might as well. I would trust that many, if not most, folks couldn't tell the difference between Rutherford Cab and Oakville Cab unless they already know who the maker is and where he/she sources his/her fruit or juice from. The Valley and vineyard designates are meaningless if the wines all taste the same. The reality is that we do say generically that a wine is Cabernet, Merlot, etc. Anything beyond that is a bonus. Would you like to explain the word "Meritage" to a European versus the designation "Red Table Wine"? But I think you're missing my point which is that most of our labeling practices are really about marketing and have little do do with information about the contents. The next time you're in your local wineshop just cruise the aisles and try to determine where a domestic wine is from just by looking at the front label. I think you'll be surprised how many wines you must pick- up and scrutinize to find out who made it, what's really in it, and where the juice is really from.

I have been 2x to Walla Walla and never seen the prison, thankfully. In fact the last two summers I have been there for 1 week each time.

Wineries outstanding. In my opinion some are far better than the best of Napa at 50-60% of cost. So I think better PQR.

I don't yet know how they age but I imagine better than many a Napa Super Premium.

Leonottti, Abeja, Renninger, Woodward Canyon...just to name a few vs. Phelps Insignia etc.

Leonetti impressed me very much, when I had it at a restaurant in Seattle.

Woodward Canyon as well.

I also liked the l'Ecole 41 Estate 7 Hills as well. Oh, and although it wasn't in the same class as the others I was taken with one from Tamarack Vineyards in Firehouse Road.

We only spent about two/three days there, so didn't get to taste as many as we'd have liked to. In fact, I think that overall I was slightly more impressed with Syrah from the area than the Merlots, though obviously Walla Walla is making it's reputation on the latter wines, because they're so much more unusual.

And talking of syrah...

I liked K vintner's wines, but we didn't get to taste any of their Merlots

I also liked all the Cayuse wines we tasted very much indeed, but again - like K vintners didn't taste a Merlot.

-- All the best Fatty from Forges

I met the owner of K Vintners at a restaurant in Walla Walla(Saffrons was the name and the owner/chef was Todd English's right hand chef when he opened Vegas and Seattle..

Owner of K- Vintners was Charles...funny and hippie like guy...long hair almost dreadlocked...

I was told by many to visit his place but they were bottling and racking barrels and not open to public as they were so busy. He would have seen us the next week. I heard his Syrah were the most Hermitage like in North America...but I did not get to try. And as luck has it non in my stores here in North Carolina.

But I will return there this summer most likely.

It is strange that someone brought up the name of Alexis Lichine recently. His first real contribution to the wine world was changing the label on Bordeaux whites to Sauvignon Blanc and watched the sales go up 700%. Labels are about marketing for sure. I am currently trying to get a handle on California's newest AVA, Rockpile. I have so far tasted 9 wines from this new area that was first planted in 1997 and became an AVA in 2002. The wines are remarkably similar seemingly just from the soil and climate. I am working on the next 9 wines over the next couple of weeks. If you try three of these wines you will have a good idea what this AVA is all about. Some that are available: Carol Shelton (2 Zins and a Petite Syrah), Cline, Rosenblum, Seghesio, Mauritson (6 or 7), JR Cellars.

I have had the Rosenblum before.

Also, Rosenblum a couple years back was sell>

Yes, that's the guy... I found him hard to get a handle on. He seemed immensely self satisfied and almost arrogant, but when you taste his better wines, you can see that it's pretty well justified. Mind you, I've been to other places in the world where they make wines that are mind bogglingly good without that.

not get to try.

We got to taste their "Morson Lane" vineyard in barrel (as well as some blends) which impressed me no end. We then got onto bottles, where we had:- (with brief notes)

Wilbrand "?Wahlinke?" Slope Lovely nose, typical syrah. Seamless, gorgeous again.

In fact this last - the "En Cerise" was one of the few wines we bought while in the West.

I don't know how close they are to Hermitage, I don't get that many opportunities to drink either!

Enjoy.

-- All the best Fatty from Forges

I used to buy JL Chave but I did that when they were under $100.00 bottle.

I have some 1996 and 1998 in my cellar and they were GREAT BUYs.

Consumers aren't so stupid that they need such labeling. Everything they need is on the label already.

I'm glad the USA has not adopted the EU naming conventions. I prefer it the way it is.