[FAQ] 3g. Oregon?

Mark,

You might consider adding the Black Walnut Inn to the lodging list. Expensive but really nice:

The painted lady in Newberg should also be on your restaurant listing.

John

Mark Lipton wrote in news:qtednafQPffyUt_YnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@insightbb.com:

Well, since we don't have *any* lodging recommendations right now, it's better than having itinerant wine lovers sleeping in their cars on the side of 99W ;-)

Thanks for the recommendations, John.

Mark Lipton Feeder of the FAQ

Mark Lipton wrote in news:_

Now there's a sight!

Mark:

Having recently finished a brief visit to the Willamette Valley, I can relate some personal experiences that may or may not be useful to you.

With regard to your list of wineries, I have no comment other than to wonder why certain wineries made the list and others didn't. There is an excellent publication available from

that provides a map and lists all (or at least most) of the wineries located in the Willamette Valley and provides the days and hours they are open for tasting. Not all of them are open every day. Of course this publication would not be much help if one wished to visit any of the wineries in other parts of the state.

As for places to dine, I can personally endorse the Dundee Bistro and Tina's. The latter is, I believe, closed on Sundays and for Monday lunch. In any case reservations would seem to be in order since it was full the (Monday) evening we were there. I can't vouch for any of the other places on your list and would not recommend either of the other places (which will go unnamed) we ate at while we were there.

As for lodging, we stayed at a Best Western in Newberg. Nothing fancy, but perfectly satisfactory. Clean, comfortable, and with free high speed internet access in every room.

One particularly interesting place we visited (based on a personal recommendation) was Sakeone, a sake producer in Forest Grove, a small town west of Portland, not far from Willakenzie Winery. It bills itself as the only American-owned sake producer in the USA. I'm not sure that I could ever develop a taste for sake, but we found the visit more interesting than those to many of the wineries.

Vino

Just one note, there are many Sake's made in the US. At least two are in Napa and there is Momokawa, a Japanese company but made in the US.

Hi Mark,

This is incorrect. While a lot of grape growing takes place throughout the Willamette, there are now a dozen separate AVA's across Oregon. A lot of growing happens south of the Willamette region, in the southern portion of the state, including Rogue and Umpqua valleys. Lots of vines are also grown along the Columbia Gorge (east of Portland) as well as the Columbia Valley, which extends into Washington State.

Even more diverse is where winemaking takes place. Along the coast (half a dozen wineries), southern Oregon (40-50), Willamette Valley (150+), the Columbia Gorge (20-30), central and eastern Oregon (10-15), etc. etc.

Many of the Dundee-McMinnville area wineries are along 99W, but a lot are located in the east valley as well, which is actually closer to Portland.

Dundee and McMinnville are ten miles apart, and I'd count both in the same northern region. Just in the McMinnville area, there are about five new AVAs within the past two years. Micro-AVAs if you will.

The Willamette is now host to about seven distinct AVA's (mostly along the various hills). It is true the Willamette Valley is divided into northern and southern areas, and Salem is more or less the dividing line between the two. There are a lot of vineyards in the southern valley (extending down to the hills around Eugene).

I'd personally forego a list of wineries for this and any FAQ (at least pertaining to Oregon), since the number of wineries changes each year. Lots are added (50-60 in the past two years), and lots close down, are renamed, or just go out of business. I recently updated the list of wineries on OregonWines.com. That was four months ago, and since then we've received a few inquiries about another six or seven wineries that are either needing to be added, or had since closed down. Here's a link from the most recent update.

Lots of the wineries' web sites include links to local lodging. I'd be sure to include all the various McMenamins overnight spots, such as the Grande Lodge in Forest Grove, Hotel Oregon in McMinnville, and Edgefield Estate in east Portland (on the mouth of the Gorge). There are literally dozens of B&B's and inns all across the map. Because this list could be so extensive, it might be best to just link to some local travel sites.

Same goes for this list. Always changing, hardly static.

In general, I think it's a good idea to include a detailed FAQ where possible. The question is -- who is going to constantly update this list? While the FAQ can serve as a good starter, and give a feel for local regions, the fact remains it will need constant upkeep (something few people consider unless they've personally dealt with the constant strain of updating online content for years). To prevent this problem, I'd recommend keeping generalized information and tips on the FAQ, but avoid going into such granular details as to list lodging, restaurants, wineries, etc. -- I would think it would better serve the reader of the FAQ if a link to tourism web sites was listed. This way, you can offload the pressure of having to personally maintain the list on the FAQ, and still accomplish your goal of helping your FAQ reader find current information about the regions they're interested in.

Please note, even though OregonWines.com is regarded as a very helpful resource by our visitors, I don't care one way or another if it were to be included on the FAQ list. We get plenty of traffic as it is. I simply think in general, to link to these kinds of large/tourism sites would be more beneficial to the average reader, in the long run. This goes for regions in every country. USA, Europe, etc.

Cheers,

David

Sakeone actually sells Momakawa's line of sake as well as some others they import. While there, I purchased a Momakawa poster of a stylized Japanese warrior that I have since framed (the frame cost about ten times what the poster cost) and plan to hang in my home office.

Vino

In regard to your question, what I've done with all of the travel advice is simply to cull all the recommendations I could find on alt.food.wine from 2003-present (and include a few noteworthy 2002 recs) in the Google archives. I adopted this approach to reduce any bias that my own recommendations would introduce, while also placing some value on personal experience to guide interested parties. IMO, a simple listing (or linking) of all available wineries, restaurants, etc. is of limited value as it says nothing about quality; at the same time, I don't want to edit out recommendations I don't agree with because I can't anticipate the tastes of the people who consult this advice.

Thanks!

Ditto.

Mark Lipton

Well, 150+ out of maybe 250 does sound to me like most, but how about the following rewording:

"The best known winegrowing region in Oregon is the Willamette (rhymes with "damn it") Valley."

Yeah, I should probably note the East region. I just kind of ignored it since I've never been excited by any of the wines from there, but that's just showing my bias ;-)

I'll put McMinnville in the Northern region. In my mind, it's kind of its own little region since it's about halfway between Dundee and Salem.

Any of note?

The problem with what you suggest, Dave, is that it forgoes any advice. If you look at my response to Vino in this thread, you'll see what my approach is. I figure that if people just want to know what wineries are there, they can consult your list or that of the other websites that I'll link to. What I'm trying to do is give all the advice that's been presented on alt.food.wine. It's not meant to be comprehensive, just representative of what's been said here -- which is, after all, what a FAQ purports to be. I agree that Oregon does change rapidly (as does CA) which is why I limited my suggestions to fairly recent ones. And I do intend to frequently update the list as new information arrives here.

Thanks. I'll look into that.

Again, I'm just forwarding the advice given here. I'll update it as new information becomes available. For the record, though, what would you recommend right now?

Either me or a bot that I code.

I do link to various regional travel websites. I forgot to do that with Oregon, but will correct that omission forthwith.

I agree, Dave, and will certainly link to your site. I think that the winery visit planner is a very useful tool for anyone who might consult our FAQ.

Thanks for the input, Mark Lipton

I understand what you are trying to do but I question the extent to which subjective judgments regarding quality of wines or wineries should be part of any FAQ. And information regarding days and times of tasting room hours at specific wineries is of more than limited interest to someone planning a visit to a particular area. Subjective judgments are quite appropriate in AFW itself, but I don't think they belong in the FAQ.

On another topic, other posters have mentioned the abundance of B&B's in the Willamette Valley. My wife and I are not B&B people but, based on an experience related to me by a close friend, I suggest that anyone contemplating making reservations at a particular B&B establish a clear understanding regarding that B&B's cancellation policies.

Vino

You raise a valid point, and one which I think Dave also was making in a less direct fashion. What I can say in favor of it is that it attempts to reduce our need to repeat the same recommendations over and over in response to the same or similar questions. However, the counterargument is that change in wineries is rapid enough to make winery recommendations a moving target and better served by direct questions to the group. It's a judgement call, I'd say. I think that I'll solicit some more input on this point.

Good point.

Mark Lipton

Hi Mark,

Thanks for taking the time to respond to all of my thoughts on this. Again - I think what you (and all contributors) to this FAQ is doing is a great idea. I simply know from experience of too many headaches to count, how cumbersome it can seem to be tasked with the challenge of constantly updating information that someone else has already expended the energy researching for you. :)

That love it. Not only is that more accurate, but the rhyme is helpful. Too many names in this state are borrowed names, taken out of context from other cultures and regions (without any thought to the original pronunciation).

Oh, well, they're smaller labeled for sure, but there are some gems out there. I think that if you really want to focus on specific areas, but cast aside the east valley, then consider Umpqua and Rogue wines. Wow. Spicy, fruity, Spanish-style varietals (Tempranilla, Rioja, Syrah!) from a very Mediterranean climate. Personally, I'm a lot more excited about these fast-growing areas than the *yawn* "self-appointed-upscale" sub-sub-sub-micro-AVA's being fought over in Yamhill County/McMinnville area.

Dundee is 10 miles from Mac. Salem is 30 miles from Mac.... and at a diagonal. Not really halfway...

Advice is fine - just that if you're going to include a brief list of wineries, then consider linking to a few external sites just so the reader can have a quick reference to find the latest. This relinquishes you from responsibility over giving them an incomplete/outdated list, and also serves your purpose of educating them about some of the basics, while also providing pointers where they can further self-educate.

I think that's the biggest issue. It's one thing to look at a 1,000 year old terroir in southern France, where it's a safe bet 95% of the wineries remain the same year after year. Just slightly different for any new/developing region.

Certainly admirable -- but what other regions are you willing to look at and update? Washington? Colorado? Idaho (27 wineries about to declare their own AVA, etc)?? It quickly mounts... again... certainly admirable. I for one have about run out of steam and so welcome someone else taking over... mind if *we* link to *your* FAQ? ;)

Someone else here mentioned B&B's being a bit different in their rules and so forth. Very true. motels/hotels are another thing entirely. Even a few hostels throughout the area, though I'd think most wine travellers would go for the middle road and pick an affordable hotel.

Hmm. Trick is, there are dozens of fantastic cultural/wine spots through the Portland Metro area... and a good number of "urban" wineries across the Metro area as well. I'm reminded of Mingo (2 locations, Beaverton and Portland - stellar and authentic contemporary Italian cuisine). There's Blue Hour in the Pearl District with a 2-tier cheese cart and a eight-page (small print) wine list. Touché is a chic little tapas bar in the same area (405 and Flanders in downtown Portland). And right around the corner is Le Bouchon (owned by a southern French lady, they have great/authentic provençale cuisine). Outside the PDX area, things go a bit south... there's Nick's Italian Cafe in McMinnville (heavy on the olive oil) or the Dundee Bistro/Ponzi Wine bar (wine much better than the food)... Da Vinci in downtown Salem is really nice with an overal Mediterranean theme... but you see... the trick is.. it's my personal palate, entirely subjective. I'd rather provide a list of places, like to portland.citysearch.com or something (which is loaded up with 3rd party reviews of the various places, even far outside the range of Portland) as that might serve a reader a bit more than my own rants and raves...

I'd love to see the bot you code. Where is it going to draw its data? Hope you have some spare time on your hands. :)

Thanks. That wasn't my goal, but I appreciate it all the same.

We've gotten great feedback on it. I know, I know - free user account required, but it keeps out the spammers and scammers who just want to blindly steal the (free) Google API code. Feedback welcomed.

Cheers,

David

Mark Lipton wrote in news:7cednQknl6BoUNvYnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@insightbb.com:

I think you are on the right tract, Mark. It's no fun trying to put something like this together. No matter what you do, there will never be a time that everyone agrees.

John

I agree.

Yeah, I should also probably tell people how to pronounce Oregon since most East-of-the-Mississippi folk say Or-ee-gone ;-)

This is where I see the divide between what you do and what I see as the goal of the FAQ. I can't hope to give an accurate picture of what's happening in the Rogue valley, nor can I recall anyone posting here about it. So, I'll steer those people interested in visiting Rogue River wineries to your site, where they can get a detailed picture.

Point taken. It just feels that way since I come down 217 to 99W from Cedar Hills.

I completely agree, and this is precisely the approach I've taken heretofore.

Again, comprehensive coverage isn't the goal here, merely summation of prior discussions on a variety of topics.

I see two different approaches. The first is to subvert the RSS feed from Google Groups and parse certain keywords for the data, which is then either amassed in a file or emailed to me. The second is to install a standalone NNTP server such as Leafnode that pulls only alt.food.wine and periodically grep the news spool looking for selected keywords. Again, the output would simply be sent to a file or emailed to me. Either way, the implementation would be fairly straightforward and very low overhead.

Mark Lipton

My aunt says a comparable situation, somewhat analogous, is Nevada and Arkansas, where some are harassed by banal patronizing pronunciators. I find this especially to be true in February, when the lack of tomatoes ......OK, that was pretty weak. But do you really think most Easterners say "Or-ee-gone?"

Based on my 21 years spent East of the Mississippi, yes. It was more prevalent in NYC than here, but that's most likely just because more people in NYC knew that Oregon existed than do here ;-) "Most" may be an exaggeration -- I've never conducted a poll to see just how it breaks down. But, it's safe to say that few people get the pronunciation right untutored. It's not a big deal, but it does spare you some harassment if you sound like the locals.

Mark Lipton

Yes, but do they HAR-ass you or ha-RASS you?

I don't doubt most Easterners mispronounce Oregon, but just think we almost all get the "gon" right. :)

PS And don't get me started on those Oregonians who come to NYC and think there's a street named after a Texas city- sheeesh!

I'm not an Oregonian, but an ex-New Yorker, and even though I know how to pronounce it, I always thought it was named after Sam Houston. But I just googled, and found in Wikipedia that it's named after someone I never even heard of before--William Houstoun, who was a Delegate to the Continental Congress for the State of Georgia from 1784 through 1786 and to the United States Constitutional Convention in 1787.

Ack. Anyone care to guess how 'Couch Street' in NW Portland, OR is pronounced? "Couch", or "Cooch"? ;)

Regionalisms is what makes the world go round.

Cheers,

David