OT: Tour de France

"Dee Dee" wrote in news:f88ru4$69k$ snipped-for-privacy@registered.motzarella.org:

the increased testing schedule was supposed to handle it, seems our leader skipped a test or two pre race. There is no perfect plan to prevent BS in cycling or wine every so often somebody gets caught with their hand on a bag of sugar or worse.

Which is worse - the use of performance enhancements (blood doping, steroids, etc), or the whole witch-hunt media frenzy that surrounds the issue? I for one am tired of it all. Would like to see state of the art testing, rigorous testing protocols, and impeccable testing standards. And then would like to see a presumption of innocence until proven guilty and a cessation of all the hype.

This Tour was an exciting one up until this last action of Rabobank. Sure, the time trial will be interesting, but the maillot jaune, for the winner, will be pale this year.

With the greatest of respect, it was the actions of Michael Rasmussen, not those of his team or their sponsor.

I am quite sure that Cadel Evans will not see this as a hollow victory, should be make up the deficit over the current holder of the maillot jaune.

I too will be quite delighted when there is a testing regime in which everyone has total confidence.

The way that "positive" test results are leaked to the French media, before officials or riders are advised, convinces me that the process is flawed.

But, with just a few stages of TdF07 remaining, I still enthusiastically pose the question "Can Cadel catch Contador?

Don't count Levi out yet!

Tsk, tour de france, it's just a bunch of white dopes on spokes...

st.helier wrote on Fri, 27 Jul 2007 07:13:44 +1200:

??>> This Tour was an exciting one up until this last action of ??>> Rabobank.

sh> With the greatest of respect, it was the actions of Michael sh> Rasmussen, not those of his team or their sponsor.

??>> Sure, the time trial will be interesting, but the maillot ??>> jaune, for the winner, will be pale this year. ??>>

sh> I am quite sure that Cadel Evans will not see this as a sh> hollow victory, should be make up the deficit over the sh> current holder of the maillot jaune.

sh> I too will be quite delighted when there is a testing sh> regime in which everyone has total confidence.

sh> The way that "positive" test results are leaked to the sh> French media, before officials or riders are advised, sh> convinces me that the process is flawed.

sh> But, with just a few stages of TdF07 remaining, I still sh> enthusiastically pose the question "Can Cadel catch sh> Contador?

As Monsanto used to say, "Better living through chemistry!"

James Silverton Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

But this is exactly where I disagree, my antipodean friend. What action of Rasmussen's?

He did not report his whereabouts in June, before the tour, and therefore missed at least one test. Rabobank could have dropped him then. They did not. Latterly, an unconfirmed report that Rasmussen was in Italy when he had said he would be in Mexico - and some time later, Rabobank drosp him. This is wrong on way too many levels. First, if Rasmussen was in violation of reporting requirements, he could have / should have been dropped way back then. To use an unconfirmed report, from a RIVAL rider, that he was in place 'X' rather than in place 'Y' (but no allegation of doping) is a ludicrous basis for dropping him after so long.

Sorry, I can't dismiss this as being "his actions" are solely responsible. This system is corrupt. Rasmussen has long been suspected of blood doping and other assorted cheats. Rabobank knew that when they brought him on, and kept him on, their team. They knew of the reporting violation - but did nothing about it. Then they drop him, this late in the race, and act as if they are doing the righteous thing - when in fact it is not. I contend that Rabobank is trying to have it's cake and eat it too - they bask in the publicity of his wearing the yellow for the bulk of the Tour, then try to reap further publicity merit for dropping him - yet in the end, they are further destroying the credibility of the whole Tour.

If ever there was a case for an asterisk beside a winner's name, this years TdF is it.

PS - disclaimer: I am no fan of Rasmussen. I happen to think he is not only the ugliest rider in the Tour, but is a long suspected cheat. And a hell of a great climber.

PPS = Mrs. AxisofBeagles leaves this weekend for a two week trip home to Aeotearoa -- family visit. Unfortunately, work prevents me from making this trip, otherwise I would declare a multi-bottle debate session to solve this crisis!

"AxisOfBeagles" wrote .............

My expat friend - I agree with your comments - on "most" counts.

(1) Ultimately, one must never ignore that the responsibility to both report for testing, and to notify one's team and the licensing body, lay with the rider.

(2) Rasmussen lied - to his team and to the ICU.

(3) Rasmussen has a Mexican wife - it was not beyond the realms of possibility that he could be in Mexico, doing some altitude training.

(4) He never missed one test - he missed FOUR. Yes, I agree - Team Rabobank should have sacked him and never included him in their TdF team - BUT, how far do you link these failures (on behalf of both the rider and his employer) with the sponsor; Rabobank?

(5) From what I am able to ascertain down here in NZ - the report that he was training in the Dolomites was not an unconfirmed act of a rival - several observers saw "The Chicken" - again, I agree: his team and the organisers of the TdF should not have let him start three weeks ago in London.

(6) I am sorry, I just do not accept your submission that his blatant lies were " a ludicrous basis for dropping him after so long" - the man is a liar and a cheat - and I do not hold that "this system is corrupt".

I do believe that the testing procedure leaves a lot to be desired - as previously stated, the fact that these "non-negative" tests are leaked to French media stinks.

And it is not un-noticed that this same hypocritical French media continues to bay after Lance Armstrong's blood while conveniently ignoring the fact that Frenchman Richard Virenque admitted to taking drugs.

My passion in the sport goes back to the early 60's - it is now accepted that five time winner Jacques Anquetil used drugs: it took me several decades to get to Tom Simpson's memorial on Mt. Ventoux - again, it was a fatal mix of alcohol and drugs which lead to his death.

Yes, you are correct - the publicity associated with a stage win in the TdF is worth millions to a sponsor - and I do accept that both Team Rabobank and the organisers should have dumped "chicken-man" way before the start line.

But, I submit that any individual will decide, on his own volition, whether he will cheat or not.

Rasmussen is a dirty lying cheat: Team Rabobank were both dumb and complicit for including him in their team: Rabobank (the sponsor) are a totally innocent party in this episode.

As to other much more important matters, if Mrs Axis may any spare time in or north of Auckland, then contact me (alphabetanz at hotmail dot com) and I shall send you a worthwhile bottle for your consideration and evaluation.

Regards

His Lordship.

Well, the best that can be said is that I agree to disagree on this. Not offering ANY excuses for Rasmussen - but the timing and manner of dismissal, lacking an acutal failed test, are every bit as egregious a rupture of the system - to my mind - as is the lack of reporting by the chicken.

As for Mrs Beagle - she is headed to Auckland, then down to the Bay of PLenty, on a major family visit (she is one of 8 brothers & sisters, and umpteen aunts, uncles, cousins, nieces, etc ...). So I doubt she is going to get away for any non-family related fun. BUt I do ahve an IMPORTANT question for you; what wines shall we tell her to seek out while there? And, for my selfish interest, what wine should she pack in her bag to bring home, if only a bottle or two?

"AxisOfBeagles" wrote .........

I could rabbit on about Central Otago Pinot Noir, but I truly think that you should get yourself down here for a look-see of your own, in that respect.

Just so that you can keep a heads up on other exciting developments, get your good woman to hunt out the following to put into her luggage for the return flight...

This is not "pick-on-the-Rhone" year, but I recommend that she find (1) Vidal Reserve Syrah 2004 (a stunning insight into the promise which this variety holds from Hawkes Bay), and (2) Villa Maria Single Vineyard Omahu Gravels Viognier 2006 (honestly, the alluring charm of this wine would have those producers in Condrieu shaking in their collective boots)

Both wines available from Villa Maria's cellar door, not too far from Auckland International.

Excellent - thank yuou. And appropriate: Syrah is the majority vine in our vineyard, and we've been buying Viognier to blend with our Marsanne for a couple years, with intention of planting our own Viognier this next spring. Better yet - have not had a NZ Syrah OR Viognier before, so this is great. Thanks much.

She=who-must¾=obeyed is a big fan of NZ SB's; any tips on which she should be looking to drink while there?

Any intention of blending viognier with the syrah?

It's a serious question (but you knew that)...

cheers

Mike

AxisOfBeagles wrote:

And with Marsanne, too. I am not doing a Syrah crush this year (lost most of the crop to a late April frost) but have a barrel+ bulk aging from last year. Will likely experiment with 5 to 10% blending of either Marsanne or Viognier in '08.

So many wines - too little time.

St Helier - how close are you to Auckland? I might be able to slip a bottle of the '06 Marsanne / Viognier into her bags for you to try of you are able to meet her somewhere.

"AxisOfBeagles" wrote .....

Hey, can you email me direct - I'll give you a couple phone numbers to contact me

I am in Whangarei - but get to Auckland weekly!

Would love to arrange a swap

alphabetanz at hotmail dot com

AB

For shame, Jim, I should revoke your degree! ;-) It was Dupont... (I think the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers may also have uttered that phrase on occasion)

Mark Lipton

As a chemist with biochemical leanings, I'm afraid that I see it somewhat differently. If we are to forbid the use of hormones like EPO, HGH or testosterone that are normally found in human beings, we must first decide on what is "normal." The problem then becomes that we find that there is a wide range of normal. So, what is the effective difference between training at altitude to boost one's red blood cell count (thereby resulting in higher EPO levels) or getting an EPO injection? We might decide that there is a moral distinction, but there is precious little else that separates them. Do we make the de facto ruling that the best competitors at all endurance events will come from high altitude countries, as we already see with distance running, because they have a "natural" way to boost their RBC count? Is that really any fairer?

Mark Lipton

True, true, but to get back to wine and sulfites in particular, these do occur naturally (from fermentation I believe) and can register something like 10-15 mg/l. The "normal" level is set so low that almost all wines, including those with very little SO2 added, fail the test and get labelled "contains ...". Now there is a difference between injecting

So under the pretext of protecting the consumer a (meaningless) warning must be given about sulfites, but the allowed dose is at levels that a consumer could not fail to notice (and not just in the nose). In a way, the cycling situation is clearer ;-)

Do they test cyclists for sulfites? It's a good antioxydant, and assures longevity... ;-)

BTW here are the permitted levels of sulfites in Australia, on several foods and beverages:

Dry Wine 200 Flour and biscuits 300 Chutneys 285

Pickles 750 Sauces, mayonnaise 350 Candied fruit and vegetables 3000 Dried fruit (in fruit bars etc) 3000 Deli meats, sausages 500 Fruit toppings, syrups 350

Here are some of the measured mean contents in sulfites as determined in a survey by the UK dept. of Health, in mg/kg:

Wine 115 Burger meats 219 Breakfast sausages 322 Dried fruit 500 Fruit juice based drinks 199

cheers

Mike

Mark wrote on Sun, 29 Jul 2007 00:14:29 -0400:

??>> As Monsanto used to say, "Better living through ??>> chemistry!"

ML> For shame, Jim, I should revoke your degree! ;-) It was ML> Dupont... (I think the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers may ML> also have uttered that phrase on occasion)

Thanks for the correction! I don't feel all that ashamed but I never was an industrial chemist:-) I was not being very serious but there could be a big debate about how much non-muscular effort should go into sport and training for them. Cycling is definitely a case in point since it involves a machine. While the one-hour distance record has to be set on a near replica of Eddie Merckx's sacred bicycle of the 70s, sprint bikes now use covered wheels.

James Silverton Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

However, he's on the right page. Dee Dee