Re: Finding "first crush" wines

No thanks vince...I own the Oxford Companion to Wine too....

Mathew

LOL,, more sarcasim. You think my wine knowledge comes from the Oxford Companion to wine? Your insult is pathetic.

Please,, explain the difference from the Oxford book because no one who posted here seems to understand the specifics.

"Vincent Vega" wrote in message news:i91dc.11331$ snipped-for-privacy@nwrdny03.gnilink.net...

From 'The Oxford Comanion to Wine', edited by Jancis Robinson....

Free Run: The name used by wine makers for the juice or wine that will drain without pressing from a mass of freshly crushed grapes or from a fermentation vessel. Depending on the type of vessel ued for draining, it constitutes between 60 and 70 % of the total juice available and is generally superior to, and much lower in tannins than, juice or wine whose extraction depends on pressing* (*see OCW pp 550). Most modern white wine is made from grapes that pass through a crusher-destemmer* (*see OCW pp 218) before going into a draining tank with a perforated bottom through which free run juice passes to the fermentation vessel* (*see OCW pp 273). In some wineries free run juice is collected by draining through specialy designed, perforated bottom screw or drag link transfer conveyors which move the must* (*see OCW pp 472) directly from the crusher destemmer to the press* (*see OCW pp 548-549) , bypassing draining tanks completely. Many wine makers boast of using only free run juice in the production of fine white wines, but press wine* (*see OCW pp 549), the wine produced by pressing what is left, may be usefull as a blending element. In red wine making, the free run wine is that which after settling* (*see OCW pp627-628), is drained or racked* (*see OCW pp 562) away from the lees* (*see OCW pp403). In some wineries, free run red wine is also recovered from specially designed transfer conveyors. Whatever remains goes into the press to yeild press wine* (*as above), which can be even more useful for it's tannin concentration when making up blends of red wines.

In short, VINCE... I signed onto this newsgroup to see what the other 'Cork-Dorks' were sipping, discussing & enjoying. The tone of the vas majority of your posts has been angry & condesending. Pretty much reinforcing every negative steriotype that the general public has about 'Wine Snobs'. If you can't play nice with the other kids, take your Grand Cru's & Vendage Tardive's & go home.

Cheers Mathew

You dont like my "tone", so you insult me and claim I have no more wine knowledge than a few books you have read. You seem like a real nice person that I would like to have more conversations with.

You didn't mention a date for this excerpt, but I'd say that it has to be decades old. The practice of separating the free run white juice in a dejuicing tank and running it directly into fermenters isn't done by anyone I know anymore. For one thing, even if one wished to separate the free run from the press fraction it is _highly_ advisable to cold settle the juice first to allow the solids to precipitate. Then the clear juice is siphoned off into fermenters.

Furthermore, in my experience there is nothing inherently superior about the free run fraction. Quite the contrary, actually. The press fraction has more intense flavor and also tends to have higher Brix than the free run.

Finally, there's the fairly popular practice of whole cluster pressing, in which there isn't _any_ free run, per se.

Tom S

Tom, I know of at least two wineries that claim to seperate and use free run juice. BV claims that the grapes from their Rutherford Bench vineyard are seperated with the free run going to make the GdL Private Reserve and the crush going into their Rutherford Cabernet. Sonoma Cutrer claimed (about 5 years ago) that they used the free run juice to make their Chardonnay and sold the crush juice to other wineries.

Tom: Oxford Companion to Wine, Second Edition, Copyrite 1999

mathew

Ok, vince, I'll accept an olive branch. I tried sending an e-mail directly to you to this effect, but it was returned, my server claiming that your address did'nt exist... You got heavy spam protection or something?

Peace Mathew

You're speaking of red wine here. I was only addressing white wine in my post. Reds are a different case, but FWIW I recall Joe Heitz saying that he didn't differentiate between the free run and press fractions. He mixed them together and bottled the assemblage after barrel aging and fining.

Sonoma

Actually, that would be _press_ juice. I'm not disputing that Sonoma Cutrer does that, but it certainly isn't mainstream practice. Also (IMO) it robs the wine of some of its "guts", rendering it less interesting than it could have been, as well as more acidic.

Tom S

Five years ago, Sonoma Cutrer was still in the hands of the original owners and their business model seemed to be to figure out new ways to lose money each year.

I will graciously except. Thanks

"> Ok, vince, I'll accept an olive branch.> Peace

Tom S stated: "Reds are a different case, but FWIW I recall Joe Heitz saying that he didn't differentiate between the free run and press fractions. He mixed them together and bottled the assemblage after barrel aging and fining."

Tom, here is what Joseph Heitz told Robert Benson in an interview for Benson's book.

______________________________________

Benson: "Do you make any wines wholly from the free run juice?"

Heitz: "No."

Benson: "What kind of press do you use?"

Heitz: "Willmes. The pneumatic tube goes down inside and presses like a doughnut, so the pomice is a donut on the outside."

Benson: "Do you always try to get a light, gentle pressing, or are there some wines which you press at different pressure from others?"

Heitz: "No, I press them all about the same, red or white. Two or three gentle pressings, but I'll end up at about 60 pounds per square inch."

Benson: "How much sulphite do you have to use before adding the yeast?"

Heitz: "I aim for 100 parts per million, and by the next day when you add the yeast it's dissipated to about 60 or 70 parts per million."

Wow! This is great - thanks. :^D

Is there more to that interview? I'd like to know more about his barrel aging and fining regimens - especially for his Cabernets.

Tom S

Hi Tom. Yes there is much more. That interview with Heitz is 12 pages long in Benson's book. If you look in the "How Great Age Worthy California Wines Were Made", Dana Myers found a source for used copies of this book at a very reasonable price. Considering your interest in making big Chardonnays, you might also enjoy the interviews wth Martin Ray and David Bruce.

Here is a summary of a few points Heitz made concernig filtration and aging. He fermented in stainless steel - about 50 F for whites and 70 for reds. He did not ferment Chardonnay in oak. He used pure strain yeast rather than wild. He racked the wine 2 or 3 times and gave it a bentonite clarification. Sometimes he gave it a coarse filtration before putting the wine away to age. He did not centrifuge. Different wines were aged in different ways as might be expected. He aged CS about a year and one half in upright tanks. The upright tanks were American white oak. They likely had been used long enough to contribute little oak extract to the wne. Then the CS was aged about 2 years in small barrels made from Limousin oak. After that the wine from the barrels was combined in a tank. It was then fined , filtered as needed, and bottled. At this point, about 3 1/2 years had passed. It was then kept at least several months before release.