White Merlot, White Cabernet Sauvignon

I tried an E&J Gallo White Merlot once. It won't make the pages of "Wine Spectator"(too cheap), but it was more flavorful than your typical white zin.

Dan-O

Rosé wines have gotten a bad reputation in the USA, and perhaps elsewhere. [I'm using the terms rosé and "blush" interchangeably and also applying the terms to wines like "white zinfandel" and "white merlot". I am aware that there is actually a grape variety called "merlot blanc", but that is not relevant here.]

On the one hand, the bad reputation is deserved, since so much lousy rosé wine is produced. On the other hand, it is unfortunate because there are some very good rosé wines produced. I've had some of each, but my personal experiences with these wines have not been all that extensive so I'll leave it to others to recommend specific examples.

There are several ways to make rosé wines. One is simply to blend a little red wine into an otherwise white wine. I mention this method only to acknowledge it's existence and get it out of the way.

Many (if not most) rosé wines made in the USA with names like "white merlot" or "rosé of cabernet sauvignon" are actually by-products of the production of "regular" versions of their namesakes. Early in the fermentation of the wines, some of the liquid is drained off and the remainder is allowed to continue to ferment on the skins. This increases the concentration of the substances extracted from the skins. There is a word (I believe it's French) for this technique that I cannot remember. If anyone can help me out here, please do. So far, so good. Sometimes the liquid drained off is allowed to continue to ferment and the resulting wine is sometimes sold with one of names mentioned above on the label. Quantities are typically small and often are sold only in the winery's tasting rooms or other selected outlets. Not that anyone should make any great effort to obtain them. Since the winery's primary objective is to make a good "regular" cabernet sauvignon (or merlot,etc.) and everything is done with this objective in mind, one should not expect much (nor is likely to get much) from the by-product.

OTH, sometimes the winery's primary objective is to make a rosé wine. Everything from the way the grapes are grown, when they are harvested, how they are selected, how they are fermented, blended, etc. is geared toward making a rosé wine. The process is much like the one described in the previous paragraph, except that all the liquid is drained off at the appropriate time. Wines made in the Tavel AC, in the southern Rhone valley, are made this way. I'm sure there are other places where they're made, but this is not my area of expertise. Perhaps others could add to this. Since here the primary objective is to make a rosé wine, one should expect (and will generally get) a much better product.

I can't give any advice on how anyone can tell from a label how a particular rosé wine is actually made (unless it comes from Tavel). My sense is that for wines made and sold in the USA, anything goes. Other countries are probably more strict. But this is only a sense and I am always open to corrections. Again, others are invited to contribute here.

Vino To reply, add "x" between letters and numbers of e-mail address.

Saignée

Like Jonathan Maltus's Lacroix Rosé, Merlot Saignée, Bordeaux A.C.

That's it! I thought I would recognize it when I saw it in print (metaphorically speaking).

Thanks.

Vino To reply, add "x" between letters and numbers of e-mail address.

Note that this procedure is illegal within the EU except for three designations (champagne rosé being the most notable, two others apply to seldom seen German designations as "Badisch Rotgold").

M.

Salut/Hi Vino,

le/on Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:48:49 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

How I agree with you. At this time of year the shops in France are awash with rosé wines designed to be glugged down with "le barbecue" or grill. The food is unbelievably bad, "hamburgers", marinated chicken legs "a la mexicaine" nasty sausages, worse merguez (lamb sausages in the North African style), stale shrimps marinated in something pretty nondescript and "kebabs" of all flavours, layered up in alternate layers with peppers, onion, and pork fat in great sheets and then cut down into 2 cms square columns which are transpierced with a bamboo skewer. To accompany these delights, mounds of boring composed salads are produced, so that with very little effort, the holiday makers can kid themselves they've eaten a nice meal. And the wine chosen to wash down this swill is a Rosé from Provence, North Africa or God knows where, which is no better than the food.

Mike Tommasi will perhaps tell me I'm being a little harsh. I'm not. It's the epitome of bad taste, sold expensively and destined to debase the french palate.

And, just as you are about to say (;-)) it's particularly sad, because one can eat some wonderful charcoal grilled food, and accompany with (if you like the combination) some wonderful characterful rosés, for very little extra effort, price or trouble.

I can't speak for saignée rosés in the States, but I can't agree for France. The primary objective in many cases, as you say, is to allow a lesser volume of grape juice to be in contact with the skins, to give more body etc for the red wine being produced. But think about this carefully. What SORT of wines is the winemaker going to want to concentrate in this way? His better wines, obviously, as s/he may well leave his/her lower end wines to find their own equilibrium. So the fermenting must that is drawn off (saignée bled off, literally) will be from the better grapes and or parcels, and the harvest might well have been treated with greater care, and cropped at lower yields. So the basic juice may be better than one might expect! Furthermore, although as you said, the mst common reason for the saignée is to improve a red wine, it can also be carried out for its own sake.

As it happens, the Revue des Vins de France July/August issue has a special feature on Rosés, and I'd guess that of the wines chosen as being amongst the best in France, a good third are made by the saignée method.

But obviously, I am restricting my remarks to French wines. When it comes to wines from other countries, other criteria may well apply.

You're quite small-minded, Ian; look, this happens all over Europe. Just drop into a supermarket in Vienna, Helsinki, Milan or Porto - everywhere the same pre-marinated lousy food, everywhere the same non-descript rosés, and piles of charcoal to incinerate everything.

M.

My guess is that you're kidding. But my German is not very good. OK, it's virtually non-existent, so I could easily miss a joke. Please clue me in.

Vino To reply, add "x" between letters and numbers of e-mail address.

Salut/Hi Michael Pronay,

le/on 27 Jul 2004 14:57:59 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

I believe you, Michael, but can't speak with the same authority for other countries. Actually, I don't think it's _quite_ as true in the UK which doesn't have the "bbq culture" to anything like the same extent.

Actually, if many in France didn't set France up as being the example of good taste and excellence in everything, denigrating most other countries, I'd be less scathing. But they do, especially in matters of food and wine, so often without having tasted the food and wine they feel so free to criticise, while at the same time debasing their own taste more and more. It breaks my heart sometimes, Michael.

LOL - He's not kidding. That means "Red Gold from Baden (south-west Germany)" Anders

You make an interesting point. I hadn't really thought about the quality of the grapes influencing a winemaker's decision to use (or not use) saignée. However, it's not obvious to me that s/he would use it _only_ with his/her best grapes. I can envision a situation where the grapes are relatively poor quality and a winemaker might decide that the only way s/he can make a drinkable wine is to use saignée. I suspect that the process is used at times for all levels of grape quality. Winemakers, as always, do what they have to do.

Now that I've learned (or, more accurately, recalled from the depths of my memory with the assistance of Bill Spohn) a new word (saignée), I'm a little bit confused about how inclusive its meaning is. The only reference I could lay my hands on was Jancis Robinson's "Oxford Companion to Wine". The entry there suggests that the term is applicable to both the situation where the objective is to intensify a red wine and only a portion of the liquid is bled off, as well as where the objective is to make a rosé wine and _all_ the liquid is drained off. If this is correct, your last sentence in the above clip does not make sense. Or am I missing something?

I don't believe that one can tell from the label of a rosé made in the USA what method is used. I doubt that the typical purchaser even cares.

Vino

To reply, add "x" between letters and numbers of e-mail address.

Really? Are you sure it is not just illegal to call it rosé, or to call it a quality wine or some such?

I know of at least one other producer (not a million miles from where I live - Cambridge UK) where a "pink" wine is produced in this fashion, and the process of mixing red and white wine was described to me with apparent pride.

If you think about it, it's basically the same as in English, where we'd say that the winemaker "bleeds" off some of the juice.

Mark Lipton

I'm fully with you, Ian, .

M.

No joke. The other designation is "Schillerwein", where red and white grapes can be crushed together to give rosé, iirc. But a short google search should help.

M.

This would definitely apply in Austria. As to the EU, I might be wrong insofar, as if it might only apply to "quality wine".

He certainly would not be able to do this in FR, IT, DE or AT.

M.

" There is a word (I believe it's French) for this technique that cannot remember. If anyone can help me out here, please do." Le Profit There are a few genuine rose's in the world, red wine grapes fermented on the skins. Sutter Home started the White Zin phenomena after they had a stuck fermentation I believe, that led to a unusual amount of residual sugar (most of the white zins before this were relatively dry) soon other wineries followed Sutter Home's lead and white zin succeeded boones farm, sangria, reunite and peach reunite as the hot consumer name in the USA. So folks with an excess of red grapes or a poor harvest started marketing white grenache, merlot and cab as a means to improve cash flow. The obvious economic advantage of making "blush wines" from red wine grapes for a winery is an accountants/bankers/stockholders dream you get your money back from sales a year or so after the harvest rather then have the expense of buying barrels and waiting for those pesky tannins to recede before you can get a return on investment. The folks who make Arbor Mist and other fruit-grape blends took this concept further as did the Gallo boys who marketed Bartles & James wine cooler a more downscale version of the Arbor Mist line.

BTW in the hands of Ridge and some wineries in Amador fermented dry or off dry a white zin makes a great picnic wine or a summer time quaff when there is more month then money in your coffers. However, most white cabs, white merlots and white grenache I tried when was ITB, really sucked. They were the intellectual equivalent of reading a Dan Qualye haiku. Real rose's on the other hand are an underappreciated joy, I have fond memories of buying a fresh bottle of Simi's Cabernet Rose at the winery and repairing to my hotel room for a night of a light repast of Vella cheeses, some fresh salami and _________.

Salut/Hi Vino,

le/on Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:33:10 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

I don't see it exactly like that, Vino. I see it more as a winemaking decision regarding the type of red s/he wants to make. If the year was a touch too generous, then s/he may want to concentrate the skin effect to counteract the over production of juice. But the GRAPES an the area would be those chosen for the wine the wine maker wants to improve in that way.

Oh sure, that will happen too, of course. And so, as always in the world of wine, it's often down to the individual winery/winemaker and how fussy they are.

Well, reading and re-reading it, it seems as if I'm saying more or less the same as Jancis (always a relief!!). You can _either_ draw of part of the must once it's taken some colour, ferment it out and sell it as rosé, treating the rest as for a red wine, of course, or else you can draw of ALL the must once it has reached the colour you want, and discard the cap etc, fermenting out the drawn-off must. Both techniques can be called saignée. The important difference is that you DON'T press the skins at all as I understand it, for a saignée rosé. No doubt I'll get corrected by half a dozen!!!

Not many do here either, to be honest. It was happenstance that I've just subscribed to the mag (persuaded by several french speaking friends that it had improved 0 and God knows it needed to) and that they had this article where the vinification method was mentioned in about 60% of cases.