Reserve - What Does It Mean?

"Mark Lipton" wrote .........

Most words like "Estate Bottled" and "Proprietors Reserve" have the broadest possible interpretation in both NZ and Australia - they certainly have no "legal" meaning.

Many NZ wineries have vineyards spread across many grapegrowing regions.

The largest, Montana Wines (now part of Pernot-Ricard) certainly grows/sources grape across a wide geographic area.

Some differentiate by using different labels fro different geographic area (Matua Valley uses Shingle Peak for it's Marlborough Wines - while Delegates uses Oyster Bay as it's Marlborough brand)

Villa Maria makes wine from vineyards from Auckland in the north to Marlborough in the South Island - sometime blending wines from quite diverse regions - always clearly labeled !!!!!

"Estate Bottle" means exactly that: bottled on "the" estate - who knows where the grapes were grown and where the wine was made.

Yup. Left field here. Guess the reason my dentist takes the precautions is to avoid getting aids from patients that might have had.

sorry for good up.

I, not being gay or use used needles really don't know much or anything about that subject so...I should not have responded.

Disagree that 99.9% of TCA contamination is the result of cork. While I cannot prove it is only 25% you cannot prove it is 99.9%.

That said I fully appreciate your offer to defend my opinion on this subject. You are entitled to your also.

I guess to some degree personal experience is what I base mine on. The majority of the wine I had that I detected TCA in was directly attributed to a manufacturing issue according to winemakers when they were contacted. BV, Montelena etc.

I am sure if I drank mostly the cheap stuff you had down in NZ I would have blamed the cork too :-)

Sure. Any dental procedure that produces blood poses a risk for the dentist, although the risk is low. Most of the cases of AIDS contacted at work by health practitioners occurs from accidentally sticking themselves with a dirty needle. I've always found those cases to be mind-boggling: 20 years of labwork using syringes to add all sorts of nasty chemicals and never once did I stick myself. I guess that there must some damn clumsy med techs and such out there... :( I also find it a bit comical to see the panic that occurs when a basketball player starts bleeding: latex gloves come on, play stops, antiseptic wipes are applied. You'd have to smear the blood on an open wound to stand any chance of contracting AIDS from it, and even then the chances are very low for most healthy people.

Mark Lipton Crusader for Common Sense

Reserve in the U.S means the wine producer can charge more money.

DaleW wrote

Riserva, for any italian DOC / DOCG wine that includes the "Riserva" version, is a "tag" that winemakers can use only under strict requirements, and these requirements are stated in that wine's "disciplinare di produzione" (production disciplinary), which is the document ruling rules about what a particular wine is (allowed growing zone for vines, max yield per hectare, minimun ageing, color, minimum % of total/developed alcohol...). As Brunello and Chianti have theyr own disciplinare, ruling about the Riserva requirements, so do Barolo, Barbaresco, and if we leave Piedmont we'll find also Amarone, Rosso Conero... almost all of the ageworthy italian reds have a Riserva option whio requires more barrel time. In the cases of Barolo and Barbaresco, for example, quoting the book about italian wine-panorama for the second level course of AIS (Associazione Italiana Sommeliers), the requirements for a Barolo are

38 months of cellaring before marketing, while Riserva must rest for 62 months. For barabaresco, the minimum ageing is 26 months, but it needs 50 months to attain the Riserva status. For Brunello di Montalcino, normal minimum ageing is 50 months with at least 2 years in oak containers of any dimensions, while to obtain the Riserva status a Brunello must undertake 62 months in the cellars. For Chianti Classico, those figures are 11 months and 24 months (at least 3 in bottle).

As I said before, almost any italian ageworty red has its Riserva version, always well stated in the disciplinare. Feel free to ask about any intalian wines you're interested in, the book is here nearby the PC ;)

Funny thing...when I grew up in a small Florida hick town we had a Sears & Roebuck in a strip center. The only glove they had for a left handed person was a first base mit. Therefore I played mostly first base being a lefty.

Occasionally Left field too.

So you guys suggesting I am in left field was not far off base for me. (not politically left...but not to far right either)

I don't really know much about Aids other then the obvious Hollywood productions. I know my friend / dentist has had to take lots of precautions due to aids. I always thought they were mostly for the patient but probably for them. They are legal requirements as he tells me. Some of which have caused prices to go way up for dental care..

Even my Chiropractor which does acupuncture has to use disposable needles now---by law.

I know that blood and needles are the big offenders. I guess toilet seats and saliva are not.

Chlorine compounds used in cleaning in and around the winery can also produce TCA. I believe corks have been the boogy man for all too many wine maladies and probably unjustifiably so. Just my two cents worth. BTW - I have been making wine for over 40 years and have worked - post etirement - at a commercial winery.

[SNIP]

Dick,

I cannot argue the problems with TCA in the barrel-room, caves, etc. However, I have encountered it per bottle in all but one instance. Whether in a restaurant, or at home, I've always had the offending bottle replaced with another (in my case, usually from the same case) of the same wine, same vintage, with no additional ill effects. This would indicate to me (totally random sample here), that the TCA contamination came from the closure or the bottle, not from someplace else in the process. Only expection was at a dinner party for ~200, where I encountered about six different (I can only assume " different," as I informed the catering director of each one, and assume that she pulled those from the various stations) corked bottles of Ch. St. Michelle Merlot. I do not know how many cases of this wine the host had provided, but at least 3 stations poured corked Merlot. I even had the catering director top up my glass with a corked bottle, while telling me, "you'll like this one, as it's PERFECT... ". I tried to keep all of our conversations "sub rosa," as I did not want to imply that our host was serving "bad" wine, or that the caterer was doing so either. This may have been a case of many bad bottles, or maybe indicated a problem in the winemaking process, however, there were many good bottles, same wine, same vintage. A real puzzle to me.

Now, that said, I'm highly sensitive to TCA, but also really like the whole " cork" aspect - I'm not a Stelvin convert, yet, but do not shy away from them. My experience just indicates that the closures, or a single bottle variation, is more of a cause, than something amiss in the cellars.

Hunt

I don't run from Stelvin either. In fact for whites I think it is a great idea. The whites I buy I drink typically within a year of release.

Red, I am not running from. Both Plumpjacks 1997 one cork the other stelvin were both good. But they were different. Had I not tried them side by side I would likely not have noticed much difference. But side by side I did notice the stelvin was less evolved.

Unfortunatly there are those in this group that don't want to recognize that there can be differences. The TCA issue I still don't is mostly related to cork. I think given time you might find more TCA under Stelvin. Thus you will know the real issue. What are people going to do then...blame the bottle itself? :-(

You would be amazed at the bottling process in a commercial winery. They do not wash or sterilize the bottles prior to filling. I do not know if this is true for all wineriers but it was true for the small ones with which I have experience. They may sterile filter the wine that goes into the bottle but I have seem some visually cruddy botttles that I would not fill. These were straight from the manufacturer in Mexico. The VERY obvious ones were culled out but who knows how many were filled that were dirty or contaminated but not vissually so.

And that is certainly one possible explanation for the bottle-to-bottle TCA taint that I have experienced. With no "control," and only my random samplings for observation, I do not have a counter for that possibility.

My observation, however, seems to point away from a greater contamination of the facilities in my observed cases. Because chlorine is used in so many of the cleaning processes, and seems to be a common thread in TCA contamination, it could well be responsible for an interaction within the individual bottles.

Thanks for the observations, Hunt

"Richard Neidich" ....................

Actually, Dick, even the most ardent supporters of non-cork closures support your contention - yes, depending on the wine, there definately *are* differences in both the short and long term..

I have tasted, side by side, same producer same vintage, many NZ Sauvignon Blancs, Rieslings, Chardonnays, Pinot Noirs and Merlot/Cabernet blends.

I have also been fortunate enough to visit a few Australian wineries and tasted several wines (shiraz and cabernet sauvignon) bottled over 10 years (Stelvin and cork).

From my experience, unoaked wines made from Riesling; Gewurztraminer; Sauvignon Blanc etc *are* negatively affected by cork - a very slight bitter/oakyness is imparted into the wine, compared to the same wine bottled under an alternate closure.

White wines which have been either fermented or aged in oak are less distinguishable from each other (cork vs screwcap) - but like you, I tend to consume my white wines on the young side - I have never had the opportunity to comparatively try a 10 year white wine.

What you write about red wines aging "differently" is generally accepted - yes, even by we Stelvin enthusiasts.

But, I have had experience of very, very good red wines bottled under Stelvin (yes, I'll admit, consumed quite young) and found them absolutely delightful - fruit, oak, acid, everything in balance - just as the winemaker intended.

(And I am talking about one of NZs premium reds, Esk Valley "Terraces" which sells for $150+.)

The unanimous opinion of those who tried this wine (French, English and NZers) - tasted against a reputable Cahors was that the NZ wine was better.

Dick, is environmental TCA or TCA attributable to barrels fact? - Of course it is !

But you continually quote a couple of the few cases proved - and only in the USA.

I can categorically state that there has never been one case in NZ where TCA was present anywhere other than from cork - not one - despite *hundreds* of wineries experiencing TCA contamination of their wines.

Perhaps you should take a look at this (a US publication)

So, how do you account for TCA contamination in wines which had no contact with wood?

Dick, I know that you are a relatively young man - and that may be a good thing - I believe that you will have a long wait - and when it comes, (as it surely will!)there will only need to be one case, and you will stand on the hill tops crowing "See, I was right all along"

Yes, well, the dementure will mean that tomorrow you will have forgotten everything, except the sore head when you tripped over your long white beard. ;-))

How about the cleanliness of the bottles. Can that cause TCA. If the bottles are sterilized improperly. Use of Chlorine?

How about the way the wine room is cleaned?

How caves are cleaned?

I know in the case of pine ridge, napa they were cleaning with a sulfer agent...not chlorine in the caves. They said they changed their methods to reduce chances of TCA.

wow....

I would imagine there can be many a reason that TCA can have nothing to do with cork. Which does not mean some TCA is anything but cork.

1) Bottle cleaning-chlorine in water, not sterilized. 2) General cleaning of equipment 3) filling equipement cleaning. First few bottles take the tca with. etc.

Having run beverage plants finding contamination can be hard. Example years ago 20 or so that is...one of my companies owned Rolling Rock Beer--(Elders of Aus--Fosters) was our partner. We tried to market a product that was a natural sparkling apple juice under the name of Appletise. Big in South Africa and parts of Europe. We had problems with a mold that was growing in select bottles in our plant. But not all off the bottles. 1 out of 3000. We had a sterilization process for all bottles to be cleaned before packaging. The mold issue caused us to bring back several hundred thousand cases for inspection. We could not find a pattern. Took us a while to find that in the building we had a leak in a pipe that was slow and dripped due to condensation in the winter. We needed more insulation on a pipe. The drops were so slow that it did not seem to wet the floor or equipment.. But hit a few bottles each week. Took our engineers months to find. What can I say. The mold was not visible for weeks after packaging. We lost our shirts on Appletise as we could not get the quality right and the spanish green apples we used were expensive. The locals in USA were not use to this kind of product. Quality issues that never reached the consumer remained a problem. We did not have same problem with the beer production. The room to bottles were stored in is where the problem was detected.

Not all problems are what they appear at first.

"st.helier" wrote in message news:e3o7oq$vok$ snipped-for-privacy@news.datemas.de...

"Dionysus" asked ............

Oh my gawd - I am gobsmacked !!!

Every bottling plant / line which I have been associated with has a washing plant which washes and rinses bottles in *hot* water immediately prior to bottling - even brand spanking new bottles, straight from the production line will be washed and semi-sterilised.

Again, I reiterate, I am no expert on the proliferation of TCA but it is my understanding that there needs to be both fungus etc plus moisture for 2,4,6 trichloroanisole to *spawn*

And I certainly cannot speak for the rest of the world.

** Help Professor Lipton !!!!!!**

"Richard Neidich" wrote ......

Dick,

Does the State in which you reside allow you to receive "gifts" of wine?

I could arrange something, but not if you will be thrown into Guantanamo Bay !!!

The shipment will not make it here from NZ. I can receive from California...but if originating from NZ---no way.

But if you wish to send me a gun that would be ok. Just not wine. :-(

At 18 years old my oldest can drive, vote in elections, be sent to war if drafted, but not drink until 21. Just amazing.

Well, milud, as you quoted in a previous post, TCA arises from an interaction of HYPOchlorite (aka bleach) with wood and microorganism. It's possible that the bleach ain't even essential to the process, but that's subject to dispute. So, dirty bottles strike me as an unlikely source of TCA. Dirt, in my somewhat extensive experience, smells like dirt and not like moldy cardboard, etc.

HTH Mark Lipton