Reserve - What Does It Mean?

Just one comment. One of the wineries (I think it was BV) that had a major, non-cork related TCA problem had many bottles tested by a lab. The result showed a wide range of TCA levels even though it was from the same bottling run. Some samples were well below sensory threshold while others were well above it.

OK, two comments. There was also a report of many wineries in France having problems because they used new wood in the roof of the winery which used caused the contamination because of how the wood was treated. This was reported to be pretty wide spread but kept rather hush, hush.

Andy

BV's problems (and Ducru-Beaucaillou in the late 80s) are well-known. I'm sceptical of second report as widespread but kept hush hush- sources please. The reality even AMCOR (the Portugese cork producers trade group) doesn't contest that the vast majority of instances of TCA are cork-related (they claim to have plans to make it better, and that it doesn't really matter because many people are insensitive anyway). And there are DOZENS of studies that show the presence of TCA in corks despite the variety of methods to inspect them.

My first comment was really just to show that just because there is bottle variation doesn't automatically indicate it's the cork. With bottle variation we are trying to simplify something that is a very complex issue.

The second was because people seem to think that the non-cork related problems are just in the US and that's not true. It's happening all over, it's just some get more press than others. The source was found from a WS search on TCA. I no longer have it (or even know if they do) and everything there seems to be for "subscibers only" now. The gentleman indicated that many more wineries were having problems than were reported. There was a big increase in winery renovations at the time and the treated wood was creating havoc. Most wineries just quietly took care of the problem and moved on.

Andy

FYI,

Here are a couple of articles of interest.

Andy

I copied this from the link you supplied.

I think the following statement makes the point real well. My point for countless threads that many have blasted me on. St. Hellier thinks I am crazy and Emery same. I am not a defender of cork. But why make changes to the closure is that might not be the real issue. I have been involved in beverage manufacturing since 1983 when I was involved in a LBO of Sunny Delight Citrus Punch. Then we bought Lincoln Apple Juice of New England, Speas Farm Apple or Michigan, Texsun Pink Grapefruit Juice Weslaco, Tx. We also aquired Latrobe Brewery/Rolling Rock Beer. I have seen many a problem and sunk millions of dollars into the fix when we found out the fix did not solve the REAL problem. I previously share the Appletise issue with mold. We also had same with Winter Hill Sodas. Manufacturing can be a complex issue. Just stabbing blindly for solutions is not always the best direction

From the link supplied by JEP 62:

"The conclusions have been diverse and varied. Everyone agrees, nevertheless, on this one point: TCA appears before the wine is bottled, and in 95% of the cases, the cork taste is not due to the cork."

Eh? I do think you're crazy, but for other reasons. :) About cork I just think you're obsessed. I've steered pretty clear about the cork debate, except to confirm I see similar levels of contamination as most, and am not happy about it. I've had a few wines under stelvin -- including the Plumpjack you mention so often -- but my experience is limited. My gut reaction is that for 98% of all wines made stelvin is probably a better solution, for the 2% the jury is out.

I don't put all bottle variation down to cork, but I think your 25 % number for bottles that are tainted coming from the cork is way out in left field, by all I've read. Haven't had a chance to read these links yet, will do later.

-E

I am disappointed. Didn't you claim you were blocking my posts? I am disappointed that you are not a person of your word :-).

I am not obsessed with TCA issue. Most of the wine I buy does not have that issue. I don't buy the cheap stuff you do. If you buy at flea markets you get fleas.:-)

I am not willing to malign the cork industry until it is proven that cork really is the key/primary issue. That to me satisfaction has not been established.

Andy, The first article is interesting- I just didn't see it as saying there's a particular covered-up problem in France. My experience is that taint is no more prevalent in French wines than American. And we all are aware of enviromental issues in wine buildings- Ducru and BV as I previously mentioned, as well as a Gallo property and Montelena (there's some controversary as to the degree of the last).

And I have never claimed that non-cork causes can't be a problem (unfortunately, I've tasted some late nineties BVs and late eighties Ducrus!). But as I stated to Mr. Imnotgaysoidontconcernmyselfaboutaids , the fact that Ryan White didn't have sex or use needles doesn't mean that's not the majority of the cases (if AIDS makes someone uncomfortable, substitute lung cancer- yes, a certain percentage of cases didn't smoke, but ......), and the fact that there can be other causes of TCA taint doesn't excuses corks.

I loved this quote from the people selling lime as a TCA preventative: " Everyone agrees, nevertheless, on this one point: TCA appears before the wine is bottled, and in 95% of the cases, the cork taste is not due to the cork. "

Really? Everyone agrees on that? Doesn't seem to be the opinion of any of several scientists that post on wine boards that I know, any major wine writer, or any winemaker I've ever talked to. Funny definition of everyone.

Dale,

You and others are assuming that TCA is cork related 98% of the time therefore get rid of cork for Stelvin.

What happens when you do find that your bottles under stelvin also are TCA impacted almost the same as they are now under cork.

You take big leaps when you make that assumption of 98% TCA attributed to cork.

Its that group think concept...why look for the real cause when you made a decision and have enablers to help you support it. In my case I have no objections to screwcap or crown. That said I have problem with cork. I do have an issue with TCA but we have not identified the % that is cork vs other sources. Everyone is guessing.. Self included. Therefore how do we find the problem. I tihnk its more complicated than you think. More info is needed. TCA needs to be eradicated but what does that mean?

Emery, I'd be really happy if 98% of wines used screwcaps (or crowncaps, like the Hofer GV I had recently!). It would be an improvement over now. But I'd be willing to buy classified Bordeaux, Napa cabs, or Brunellos with screwcaps too.

The argument for "well we don't know about aging reds" is generally based on the premise that cork allows a certain amount of oxygen to pass. That's indeed true. The problem is of course that cork (even the most expensive ones) has no consistency in the degree of permeability. And studies have shown that bottles with the least permeable corks tend to rank highest in taste tests of aged wines.

So is oxygen neccessary? Some don't think so: (Ageing) It is the opposite of oxidation, a process of reduction or asphyxia, by which wine develops in the bottle - Emile Peynaud; Knowing and Making Wine 1989.

Reactions that take place in bottled wine do not require oxygen Pascal Ribereau-Gayon in his Handbook of Enology, Vol. 2 2000

But let's say they're wrong. The great thing is now they can make permeable screwcaps with a precise amount of permeability. With proven neutral materials, wouldn't it be great to just bottle with screwcaps at the low end of cork's permeability scale? Then there would be no risk of cork-caused TCA AND there wouldn't be the worries of randomly oxidized bottles, as you get from cork.

Hope Adele and the kids are well. Dale PS as to some people's idea of oxygen being neccessary, it occurs to me that wax is probably pretty damn airtight. I've never had a problem with wax-topped Port bottles not developing.

If your talking about the Australian Wine Institute study on O2 ingress, I think that has been pretty much ruled as being a flawed study on a couple of points. (I think it was the AWI that did the study). Other studies I've seen usinig proper procedures have shown very consistent O2 ingress with high quality cork.

Personally, my issue with aged reds and corks is in many of the studies I've heard of, every one keeps saying how fresh and lively and young the wines taste. I'm not sure that's what I want for some wines. There is something to be said for certain wines evolving gracefully for 30 years. If it takes 60 years, well I won't be around to enjoy them. I know certain wines aged under cork will evolve this way, I do not know (I hope they will, but I do not know) that wines under screw cap will. Am I willing to experiment myself if I could get these wines under both closures. Sure I would. Would I be comfortable stocking my cellar with only screw capped wines. Not yet.

I wish there was as much effort put into researching this issue as there is marketing cork and screw caps.

I didn't say cover up, I said hush hush. Let's just not talk about it too much. Let's just correct the problem in the winery and move on. As I said before, the original article I refered to is locked under the subscriber only WS website. I can't get to it anymore. The two I posted are just two of many article I ran across recently.

The list of wineries saying they have a problem because of environmentals (rather than cork) is growing all the time. Hanzell is another one off the top of my head. This is a big problem. Is cork a problem? Sure but not the only one.

Comparing it to AIDS is rather strange. With HIV, there is very little evidence that it is transmitted except by blood or sexual contact. With TCA, there is a lot of evidence of non-cork contamintation but too many people are just turning a blind eye. I think the wineries coming forward and admitting it are brave and have earned my trust. Wineries that just blame it on the cork without checking their winery have lost my trust.

Frankly, even if it is the cork in their case, we've known about the problem for decades. Why didn't they have better quality controls on their corks? Do they just accept grapes from their growers without any quality controls? Do they accept bottles, or chemicals or labels or anything.. without any quality controls in place? Why just the corks? Makes me wonder.

Andy

I use wax on all my home made red wines. The other day, I found several bottles of wine I bottled about 4 years ago. For some reason they did not get waxed. I compared wine from a bottle that had been waxed to one that had not. The one that had been waxed was far better in my opinion. The waxed wine was nice and fruity. The unwaxed wine was drinkable but it had a very slight after taste that was not present in the waxed wine. Both of the bottles were from the very same batch and bottled at the same time. I am going to continue to wax all my wines. It does not take all that long once you get your technique down and the wax can be removed, reheated and reused - provided you do not let the wax get too hot when you apply to the bottles.

"Richard Neidich" wrote ..........

And you steadfastly suggest that 75% of TCA contamination occurs through

*other* sources (environmental; oak barrels etc) - and despite my asking many many MANY times for some sort of reference - you cannot supply.

This is simply "Dick's Law of Imagined %"

Again, I humbly point out - of the source of TCA was from barrels or contaminated cellars etc. - then the effect on wine would be wholesale.

If one *unclean* barrique was blended with (say) 50 others, then the resulting 15,000 bottles would all be "corked"

This is certainly *not* the case in the marketplace - 3/4/5 bottles in 100 (or choose any other %) are affected.

So, how can this be?

And although I have encountered *one* screwcap closed wine which was spoiled, this was because the cap was damaged and the wine was oxidised, not corked.

I am sorry Dick, your contention is flawed.

"Richard Neidich" wrote .....

I do not think you are crazy - I know you are !!! :-)))))

No??? You are a cork believer!!! You believe that a cruddy piece of bark, grown in goodness knows what environment; with all the inconsistencies that growing trees in varying climates and seasons etc - hacking of chunks of bark, processing, then chemically treating (sterilising!) said cork makes a consistent, inert closure which not only keeps the contents inside a bottle; actually enhances the contents.

I am sorry Dick, I just don't buy that.

Cork represents "failure just waiting to happen."

Because, we live in a world of change - we don't drive on soft & spongy old "natural rubber" tyres - modern compounds are longer wearing and safer.

You do not drive from place to place on old gravel roads - nope - modern super freeways are the answer - and, when was the last time you flew from LA to NY on a DC3?

It is called progress, Dick.

I have no doubt that you have much experience in manufacturing - you say that it can be a complex issue - but I'll wager that none of the manufacturing processes currently employed are exactly the same as 50 or 20 or even 10 years ago.

That is also called progress.

Winemaking is not manufacturing - it is actually a very simple process - generally unchanged for centuries - OK modern methods and products are used (we are not using clay vessels and reeds stuffed in to seal them).

You seem incapable of, or just unwilling to accept that by far the greater % of wine enters the bottle uncontaminated by TCA - you cling to a couple of proven examples where the TCA contamination was environmental - and apply these truly isolated cases to every bottle of "corked" wine regardless of its origins.

Please quote me one example of a proven TCA contaminated winery from Bordeaux, or Burgundy, or Champagne, or Germany or Australia or New Zealand or South Africa or Argentina or Chile - because I have experienced TCA infected wine in or from every one of these regions/countries.

Again I say, I have never experienced a whole case of wine where every bottle was corked.

Have you?

Has anyone in this forum?

Anyone?

Because that is the test of your argument - unless every bottle was infected, then the TCA came only from the cork, and *not* from any other source.

"proven TCA contaminated winery from Bordeaux, or Burgundy, or Champagne, or Germany or Australia or New Zealand or South Africa or Argentina or Chile "

While I agree with your argument in principle, I should point out that it's generally accepted that Ducru-Beaucaillou had a major cellar-related TCA problem in the 1987-1990 period (and many of us have noticed a lot of off 1986s). And I think Canon also about the same time.

The thing is when there is an enviromental cause, it affects all bottles. Due to varying rates and varying personal sensitivities, it isn't obvious in every bottle (I've had ok '98 BV), but the noticably TCA aflicted bottles tend to be 50-75% , not 5%. And the non-obviously-infected bottles tend to be so-so, with muted fruit. Anyone ever had a spectacular '89 Ducru or 99 BV GdlT? It's hard to believe that the cause in the '96 Leoville Barton, '90 Sociando, ''83 Leoville-Poyferre, 91 Dominus, or '93 Chiarlo Barolo is enviromental, as so many great bottles have been drunk.

Just as good as your guess of 99.9%. That Hellier's Law of Imagined %. Which is exactly my point. Since you don't know, and I don't know...why should an industry change until they know the source and the remedy.

Imaginary friend-Out now.

"Richard Neidich" wrote ..............

Over 90% of ALL New Zealand wines are now bottled under screwcap.

I was talking to a winemaker friend of mine just last night - by his reckoning 9% of his wines were TCA contaminated; he was experiencing returns (for refund or replacement) of just under 1%.

Since he switched to screwcaps for all his wines (Pinot Noir; Chardonnay; Pinot Gris; Riesling) his rate of failure is zero.

Failures of screwcaps = also 0.

Yes, there was a capital cost - but return on investment - less than 5 years.

OK. You have a good point there. But you also indicated they sterilize the bottles in NZ. The person in this group says that is not a practice at his winery.

Perhaps they changed procedures for screw caps that included sterilization. Perhaps thats a key issue. Perhaps the screwcap people have been methods suggested if they want backing.

I would like to try more wines under stelvin....whites in particular and will do so.

1% is a nicer % than 9%.

But is that the screw cap or other issues they do that we don't here and other areas.

I am not anti stelvin/screw cap.

"Richard Neidich" wrote ..........

Nope - we had a washing plant which used to wash every bottle in very hot water back when we were using cork closures in the mid/late 80s.

Shame you don't live in a *civilised* State - I have some Palliser Estate

2004 Sauvignon Blanc bottled under both screwcap and cork - a very interesting comparison !

Dick, I don't know if it was because NZ is a tiny market, stuck away down here in the South Pacific (and remember, our *serious* wine industry is less than 40 years old!) - but back in the late 80s / early 90s - the number of bottled infected was very high - and wineries just got pissed off - I believe that is why screwcap technology has been embraced to the extent that it has - by both winemakers and consumers.

And I am not anti-cork - just anti *bad* cork.

Regards

st.helier