residues in red wines

They are not a sign of bad wine, nor are they necessarily a sign of good wine. They, the lees/sediment are, in short, a natural percipitating out of solids in the wine.

Yes, it can be disconcerting to have to leave some wine in the bottle to keep the sediment from being poured into the glass, but that is just the way it is. Careful decanting goes a long way toward getting the most wine separated from the lees. And, yes, the sediment is not very pleasant, usually quite bitter.

They are one of the reasons that the bottles of wine, likely to throw sediment, are shaped as they are, with sharp shoulders. Wines, like Pinot Noir, are more often packaged into bottles with sloping shoulders, as they are less likely to throw sediment. Still, when pouring a PN, especially an older one, or a heavily extracted one from the US, it is wise to watch the wine being poured, so no sediment passes from the bottle.

Hunt

The "sediment" may also be precipitated tartrate crystals, which usually look like fine sand or sugar in the bottle. This is a harmless condition that does not in itself affect the flavor or quality of the wine, although it can be unpleasant to swallow it unawares. As above, calls for decanting or careful pouring.

Andy

A few people will actually look for sediment. It's a sign that the wine was not "fined" which is sometimes done with egg whites. Vegans don't want this.

Dan-O

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I have only noticed tartrate crystals in whites, but maybe that is because of the decanting of most of my reds. Maybe Mark, or one of the other chemists in the crowd can tell me if tartrate crystals are likely to form in red wine.

Hunt

...

Had not thought about the vegans, being a carnivore myself, but I see your good point. Also, unfiltered, unfined whites will often yield lees, and other light colored sediment, as they percipitate out, though they seem far less offensive to my palette than the lees from reds.

Hunt

Thanks to all. As a newcomer to wines, and having spoiled expectations of technology, I "expect" my foods and liquids to demand nothing but my tastebuds. Perhaps I should rethink. Perhaps it's a good experience to see that something is still produced as it was long ago. Some of the sediment is dark coloured and of sand grain size as mentioned, and some of it was reminiscent of egg white crystals which really turned me off. Knowing it was nothing that should not have been there is a blessing. I still remember the scare stories about Austrian wines, and before that Italian wines.

There are many,many wines that are "over-processed" that will probably not throw any sediment, though often most of the flavor and character have been striped away.

Hunt

Salut/Hi Dan The Man,

le/on 1 Jul 2005 09:23:14 -0700, tu disais/you said:-

Sorry, but I must correct this,

Firstly, you can get sediment on a wine that's been fined, and you can get it on a wine that's been filtered.

Secondly, not much wine is fined with egg white nowadays unfortunately. Much fining is done with bentonite, but much more wine is cleared by filtering.

So if vegans are looking for sediment as a proof that no egg white's been used, then they're living likely to be fooling themselves.

I'm not a chemist, but I do haven encountered tartrate crystals in red wine, although much less frequent than in whites. They look the same, albeit deeply red coloured. They often form at the bottom of the cork, making quite a mess when pulling the cork.

M.

I too have found tartate crystals in red wine. It's true that white wines often have more tartrates than red, but both have them in abundance.

Mark Lipton

Now that you mention it, I have noted them on the cork bottoms of reds - duh! Thanks for jogging my memory.

Hunt

Hi, Ian -

There are a couple of points you've touched on that I would like to expand a bit.

First off, there are a variety of fining agents used in winemaking. Some of them are the egg whites and bentonite that you've named, as well as gelatin, isinglass, PVPP, kieselsohl, casein and a number of proprietary formulations. Each of them is used to address different properties in wines.

Bentonite is used to remove heat-unstable proteinaceous materials that can cause clouding in wine after bottling. This is especially true of white wines, where cloudiness is particularly visible (and objectionable), but it does occur in some red wines as well - particularly Pinot Noir. Bentonite is also used prior to filtration to remove gummy particulates that tend to blind filter media.

Egg whites, gelatin and isinglass are each commonly used to address excessive tannins in young wines. As you said, egg whites are not so frequently used nowadays.

PVPP is a synthetic compound that is used to counter browning in white wine and juice.

Kieselsohl is a silicate compound that is used to help compact fining lees.

Casein is used to remove harshness and/or color from white wines. It also tends to remove oak flavors.

Various combinations of the above are frequently used to "polish" a wine - either prior to bottling or prior to filtration and bottling.

On the Vegan topic: I don't understand why fining materials, such as egg whites or gelatin e.g., are an issue at all. The fining materials all precipitate from the wine (carrying off whatever they were meant to remove) and do not remain in the finished product.

Furthermore, although some extremely minute traces of them may remain behind, what about the traces of the yeast itself that remain in ALL wines - fined or not? Yeast certainly isn't a vegetable or mineral! Are Vegans permitted to consume products of these microscopic animals?

I can understand the reasons for a vegetarian lifestyle. Avoiding meats, cheese and eggs will likely extend one's lifetime some amount. What I don't understand is the extreme fanaticism that seems to be part of the Vegan philosophy. It seems to be a clear case of picking the fly sh** out of the pepper!

Tom S

Most fine wines, even those that are completely sediment free when bought, form a sediment if aged for many years. Even Champagne that is still perfectly good can have a very small amount of a light colored sediment if you very carefully handle the bottle and examine with a strong light before opening.

Vintage port can throw an extremely heavy sediment or crust, and this is to be expected. Some of the most heavy sedmnts that I have seen are in BA and TBA wines from the best growers in Germany in the best years. There often is a very thck layer of tartrate crystals, usually colored yellow to golden by the pigments in these very rich wines. These tartrate crystals sometimes can be quite large. They are heavy, so decanting usually is easy. Many of the 1976 auslese and above German wines are loaded with tartrate crystals.

Reply to snipped-for-privacy@cwdjr.net .

We all need some understanding. Perhaps there are vegans out there who cannot understand the way people who have pet animals can also eat animals. You appear to require vegans to be completly and utterly understandable yet seemingly are undisturbed by the great variablity and contradictory nature of the rest of us. Suppose a vegan thought that the eggs of chickens were meant for their natural reproduction, and breeding chickens to produce eggs for human requirements was not right? Sounds logical. If we can do it just as well without killing animals, then why not? Pointing out that vegans might have to choose a point where an animal is not an animal is no more of a point than those who would turn off a tv showing a slaughterhouse, yet joyfully consume it's product.

Well, sure. I _get_ that. What I don't understand is why non-fertilized eggs (the vast majority) are not OK for eating - even within the Vegan ethic (as I perceive you are describing it). For that matter, what's wrong with milk and cheese (aside from the obvious health issues)? There's no harm done to the animals at a dairy farm, so I see no foul.

Believe me, even those of us who enjoy a good steak don't really want to know all the details of its acquisition. Sometimes ignorance is bliss. :^)

Tom S

Well, I'm not Vegan (as a matter of fact, I'm vehemently anti-vegan), but I'll try to answer to the extent of my understanding. First, Veganism is mainly an ideology, quite communistic in flavor - they object against animal exploitation. Since the cow did not produce its milk for human consumption, or the bees their honey, any use of these products by people is exploitation, therefore, a no-no. Same goes for eggs, isinglass, gelatin and any other animal product you can think of. All this is quite logical and consistent, and if you accept the basic premise - no exploitation and harm to animals - you cannot help but be a vegan. The only small flaw I personally find in this system, is why should we not use products (meat and whatnot) from animals that have died of natural causes. I bet Vegans have an answer ready for that too - something in the line of depriving *other* animals of their food - but I'm not eager to find out, and couldn't care less.

Do you not recognise the irony here? You don't understand people who are as mysterious and inexplicable and contradictory as :-

My answer - again - is that we all need to understand each other better. But before we get to that, we have to understand ourselves better first. There now I should be posting to some other group. I have never once been reprimanded, criticised, or even been given a bad look by a vegan.

For the other poster as well:_ :-) They have never tried to force their views on life and food upon me, and never have I heard them voice political views that truly could be linked with "communistic" or communism.

But try to order a vegetarian meal when you next travel in an aeroplane (thankyou for nothing, Air Canada, even though I pre-ordered), or at a restaurant, and see how much choice you are given, and note how it swims in the grease dripped from the last steak cooked. Ask for a vegetarian meal in Paris and watch for the look on the waiter's face. What? Unable to cook without butter or cream? Sacre Bleu!!!

Oh, but the central tenet of Veganism is exactly the same as the central tenet of communism: no exploitation. Violence enters communist theory only because there is apparently no peaceful way of parting capitalists with their money ;). The same would happen if Vegans decided for whatever reason that their lifestyle is the Only True Way, and tried to impose it upon the rest of us. Luckily, Veganism as a lifestyle choice *can* be practiced by people of that persuasion without inconveniencing the rest of us; communism, on the other hand, cannot be practiced (except internally, in isolated kibbutz communities) without a revolution. Cheers, Elko

Salut/Hi interested,

le/on Sat, 09 Jul 2005 14:36:31 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

Frankly, I am uninterested in whether anyone else is a meat eater, a vegan, vegetarian, ovo-lacto-vegetarian, nor any of the other variants. You make your choices and live with them. I make mine and live with them. However, I will not concede any kind of moral high ground about not eating meat, fish, eggs or milk or any thing produced from them.

So why should you EXPECT to get such food in a meat restaurant any more than I should EXPECT to be able to get meat in a vegetarian restaurant? You seem to be wanting to apply one set of rules for vegetarians and another to those who eat meat.

For example, I run a B&B. I serve dinner. I am prepared to bet that a vegetarian eating at my house would expect to be served a meat-free meal, while at the same time the same person would refuse to cook ME meat if I ate at theirs. That's dual standards.

But coming to the subject of the thread, therte is no possible way of telling whether any animal product has been used in the production of a wine unless the winemaker chooses to tell you.