Stelvin or not?

A quote from a previous post:

"but best of all: buy wine with a Stelvin cap!

MAUOMBO"

NO! Now I am really interested in hearing a discussion on this, Some weeks ago I spoke to a number of top Austrian winemakers. Universally the opinion was that Stelvin is not for them. Their comments were that IF your cork producer is reliable, it is far better for ageing wine to age it under cork. To date NONE of the studies I have read compare say 10 yo wines under stelvin and decent cork; the studies I have looked at say that stelvin wines are fresher. Perhaps, but I prefer the aged character of 10 yo rieslings, let alone decent Bordeaux and Burgundy. My contention is that many New World winemakers do not taste enough aged wines. In Australia, where I come from,

Ron Lel

Salut/Hi Ron Lel,

le/on Mon, 09 Feb 2004 08:51:14 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

So give the Comte de Bosredon the address of one reliable cork producer. I just received the following letter from him.

(Translated on the fly by me) =========================Sir, Madam,

We have the honour of counting you amongs our faithful clients and we thank you for the confidence you show in us.

During the year 2002 or 2003, you acquired some bottles of Cuvée Prestige Ch Belingard 2000.

Unfortunately, over the last few months, we have discovered that a significant percentage of our bottles were corked.

We would, therefore like to know if you have had problems of corked bottles with the bottles of Cuvée Prestige Ch Bélingard 2000. If this has happened we would be grateful if you could inform us.

Naturally, we would be at your disposition either to replace them with another vintage (2001) or to find some other method of compensation.

Yours etc.

==============

You should read more widely ;-))).

In general, perhaps. Though in the comparative tasting Jacquie and I took part in in Bordeaux last year (Michael Pronay was there too) organised by Wine magazine, the Rieslings were't _prevented_ from aging as far as we could tell, because we were tasting blind.

Did you know that comparative aging studies using Stelvin as closures for red wines have been carried out in prestigious Bordeaux Chateaux?

At the moment, NO wines demanding long aging are sold under Stelvin. Therefore the choice doesn't exist as yet. However, for all other wines, the choice is clear, IMO.

Ian, VBG, total agreement. While it is true some cork producers are more careful than others, that's only a way of reducing the risk.

Again, total agreement. While I hear lots of arguments based on anecdotal evidence about whether cork is necessary for aging ("slow diffusion" of oxygen, or whatnot), I see no reason I should have to deal (as I have within last month) with corked bottles of Menetou-Salon, Qba Riesling, or inexpensive Chianti. And I'm probably on the insensitive end of the TCA-spectrum! It even occurs to me that (to those arguing for more reputable cork producers) that if all of the 95+% of wines that are intended to drink within 2-3 years of bottling were to switch to stelvins (or crown caps, like my Frick recently!), maybe those producers could be more careful (lots of trees to choose from) and even our classed-growth Bdx and GC Burgs would be safer.

Cheers,

Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

But what would I do with all my nice cork removers like Laguioles and Le Crueset leverPulls? :-)

Well, you could mount them on a wall for display, or keep them for your pre-2004 wines. :)

BTW, am I the only person who finds that synthetic corks (I've opened several recently, from Verget and other producers) are really tight/hard to get out with a waiter's corkscrew, and then hard to get off the worm? Not to mention that they usually won't go back in bottle if you don't finish. :( Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

I understand Laguiole is coming out with a set of Stelvin pliers to fill just that need ;-)

Nope, you're not the only person, Dale. Also, do not EVER try aging a wine bottled under a synthetic cork: they apparently scavenge all the free SO2 and the wine dies far more rapidly than it would under any other closure. I found this out the hard way a year or two ago with a '96 Siduri Pinot Noir. :(

Mark Lipton

And Ron, since you come from Australia, go ask Penfolds the results of cork vs stelvin trials they have been conducting for over ten years on their premium reds.

You may well see even Grange bottled under Stelvin at some time in the future.

Salut/Hi Dale Williams,

le/on 09 Feb 2004 14:08:41 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

By the way, I was deeply impressed with his punctilious care for his clients. I know that important and reputable estates in Bordeaux (and California, iirc) do _agree_ to replace corked bottles, it's relatively rare for someone from a minor area to OFFER to do so. What was heartrending afaiac is that this Cuvée Prestige was glorious, and as it was his top wine, he would have used the _best_ corks available to him. Comte de Bosredon is one of the top 4 or 5 Bergerac producers, and one who could expect (ex-president of Bergerac wine makers) to get absolutely top quality corks.

is necessary for aging ("slow diffusion" of

Hmm, I'd say that most of the discussion has to be more on a hypothetical level, as there's little true anecdotal evidence for comparison. What I do know without doubt, is that wine that is kept under "normal" cellaring conditions, with "normal" slow half yearly variations in temperature, does usually develop a space between wine and cork after many years. This must have at one time contained oxygen, and therefore any theory of aging must take this fact into consideration. It is equally indubitable that wine kept at very low steady temperatures age far MORE slowly than wines kept "normally". Again, any theory of aging has to take this into account.

I don't think there's much empirical evidence comparing the quality of aged wine, when stored under differing conditions, and with different levels of ullage, though there IS a bit, which suggests that the slower the wine develops, the better it will eventually end up. This seems to me to hint that while oxygen may speed up the aging process, it may do so to the detriment of quality.

All the above to say that afaiac I don't think there's enough evidence either way to pronounce either against or for Stelvin _as a long term (>20 years) closure_. I'd neither refuse to buy such wines under Stelvin, nor insist upon it.

Yes, this is an excellent argument, and one with which I agree entirely. If the use of cork closures were restricted to wines demanding very long term aging, and to sales in France (whose wine consumers are amongst the most hidebound in Europe), then the reduction in demand would almost certainly reduce the incidence of corked wines to the levels it always used to be before the 70s.

Let me add to the fray. This article at Felton Road discusses their use of caps, and mentions a few other producers also using or experimenting with them. Interesting reading on the matter. NZ (my native country, although I now live in the US) has been forging ahead with caps for a while, but there is obviously a very entrenched reaction against them.

My humble opinion is simply that I'm paying for the wine first and foremost, and anything that can protect it better is a plus in my book. I say this because I have read opinions that state (in so many words) "stuff whether it's better for the wine or not; a cork is just more aesthetically pleasing!".

At a recent wine-tasting, an importer of mainly New Zealand wines (and from NZ IIRC) said something interesting. He said especially in Aus/NZ they are moving toward stelvin or screw-caps for white wines as a way to preserve and guarantee the freshness and fruit of the wine to the consumer. What he said many, especially himself, would like to see is nearly all white wines using non-cork closures. This would result in fewer corks necessary worldwide which would mean the overally quality of corks would go up, such that the low grade corks would no longer be made. (A high-grade cork is quite reliable, the issue with corked wines is the use of the lower-grade corks) It's probably the way to go..

I've found it depends on the synthetic. Unfortunately, Supremecorq (many colors, looks like it's molded from "curds" of some sort, almost incompressible) is the market leader and between it and its clones is the most common one. This one is truly hell on corkscrews in general

- and on Ah-so's, for that matter. OTOH, Nomocorq and Neocork, two outwardly similar synthetics (relatively spongy center, slippery extruded outer sleeve, usually more or less natural color) are fine with normal openers.

- Mark W.

Would you please tell me and the makers of prestigious, but corked, wines which corks to avoid? I'm fairly sure that information would be immensely valuable to all in the wine industry. Sincerely yours, Anders

Yes, you'd think that makers of Lafleur, Leoville Barton, etc.(which I've run across corked bottles of) would be willing to get the good corks. I've heard severally reports of corked Grange, DRC, too. As stated earlier, some cork producers are better than others. But it's more a case of (pulling numbers from memory, couldn't cite source) 3-4% risk vs. 10%, not elimination of risk. Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

I have read that one in seven corks are bad on a world wide basis. That number most likely includes some very old corks and some very new corks. One vintner whose wines I buy regularly seems to have found the supplier of the bad corks. I have experienced a bad cork rate from that vintner of about one in four and that would all be very young wine.

I confronted the wine maker at St Francis about four years back about their plastic corks and the trouble that I was having getting them off a ScrewPull or LeverPull and he told me that they were on their fourth iteration of plastic and were not going to give up because their cork supply was so bad. The planet is full of wines without Stelvin so why bother.

Heya, Bill! Been a while since I've last seen you here -- I hope that all is going well for you. I've heard numbers between 5 and 15% bandied about, but I'll bet that it depends a lot on who's doing the counting, given the incredible diversity of TCA senstivity in the populace.

Mark Lipton

Those are the injection molded closures. However, I'm experimenting with extruded or co-extruded low density polyethylene closures (Neocork and Tage, and several other manufacturers) which are much easier to extract and to get off the corkscrew. The jury is still out as to whether they do a great corking job over the long term, but over the short term they seem to do just fine in terms of keeping wine in and air out. I've had trouble with the mechanics of bottling with them, because they're extremely sensitive to +/- headspace pressure, but this year I'll be trying some new versions which might do a better job in that regard.

Craig Winchell GAN EDEN Wines

Salut/Hi Ron Lel,

When I first read your post, I interposed a couple of letters into the country you talked about!

le/on Mon, 09 Feb 2004 08:51:14 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

Then you have been talking to different "top Austrian producers" than Michael Pronay. I await his trenchant remarks with interest. He's an eminent Austrian wine journalist who writes here frequently. I will be fascinated to read his comments.

Salut/Hi Peter Muto,

Can I ask a favour please.

When replying to a post could you try hard to trim the original message so that just enough remains for a reader to know what it is you're replying to. Otherwise we can easily end up in a silly situation with 125 lines of quote and 1 line of comment!

le/on 9 Feb 2004 10:03:21 -0800, tu disais/you said:-

Yup, there's little doubt that's true, and it's not only in the Antipodes, I know of quite a number of French producers doing it for export.

I can live with that, though I have some hesitation over top white Burgundies and for top sweet wines.

overally quality of corks

high-grade cork is quite reliable, the issue with

Unfortunately it's not as simple as that, would that it were. I _think_ that what will happen is that as demand for cork closures goes down, so the AGE of the oaks from which cork is stripped, will go back up again, and that it is this which may reduce the proportion of TCA tainted bottles. However, I do agree that one way or another, cork manufacturers will HAVE to get their house in order, or lose out completely. If it means that the price of corks increases dramatically, but with a guaranteed absence of TCA, then the selection process will take place almost automatically.

Just to lob one awkward little factlet. It's not generally known that for MANY years (like >25), vintage champagne has been aged under crown caps? So aging definitely DOES take place under a hermetic seal.