Tipping on Wine

Salut/Hi Bill,

le/on Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:04:46 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

That's easily possible, but of course, all those five won't _just_ look after one table of 5/7 or whatever and nothing else. In a sense you have to look at the total number of diners, multiply that by the cost per head on average and then take a percentage to arrive at an average per night tip to be divided one way or another between the staff.

package deal with service, food and wine almost in one piece.

I can live with that.

I've heard good things about both. Depending upon how big my tips are between now and October, maybe I can afford to visit one or more!

We had a thread on this some years ago. I remember holding forth on the subject at inimitable length. I think I might be tempted to reply "Well Hi, Tammy, I'm Ian, do you want to know about my piles?"

Humph.

Salut/Hi Midlife,

le/on Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:42:41 -0700, tu disais/you said:-

Ah, so in effect you're supporting tips because part time workers don't get a living wage? Seems to me that the idea of part time work is to get only part time pay. Maybe I'm heartless, but I really find it's wrong to put moral pressure on diners to add up to a fifth of their bill to enable restaurants to put an artificially low price on the menu, by underpaying their staff.

Chuckle... It's 20% that I feel is out of proportion, and the acceptance on the par of the public to pay a "morally imposed" tax, because that's what it is. No one defending the system suggests that it is EVER correct to give no tip at all, no matter how atrocious the service. I cannot - with the best will in the world - go along with that logic.

It's for others to answer. But I do seem to find something like 30% of my business comes from repeats.

The only "hidden" benefits are that we eat and drink for free - effectively, and that the possibility of eating a meal here greatly encourages people to come (the rules covering B&B prevent me from selling a meal to anyone NOT staying). That means that our turnover in the B&B is higher (probably). We make a much better return on that side of the business. But the meal side - taken in isolation - is as unprofitable as I've shown. Honestly, if we weren't wrried about the effect on our B&B turnover, we'd probably drop it altogether - or at least be much more hard nosed about restricting it to say two nights a week.

No I'm saying that expectations are sometimes exaggerated.

Tipping seems to be one of those cultural issues that is different in different countries.

Make no mistake in the USA waiter generally do not get paid. In many retaurants they do not actually get min. wage but they must declare making min of min wage which is $5.15 hour I believe.

Many a european is considered cheap when they come here to USA and don't tip at a min of 15% for decent service.

Think of it this way....you only eat 3 meals a day and should tip at least

Think of it this way...most of our bathrooms are not coed and they are not attended. They also are no charge. You probably use the bathroom more times a day than you eat so you can save bathroom tips and give that to the server :-)

...I have to take issue with this comment.... Fair for the server, yes.Fair to the customer... no. As in any retail operation, costs & overhead are passed on to the end- consumer. If servers were paid a 'Fair' wage for what they do, that $28 steak you just ordered would be $60 to cover labor costs. People complain about tipping, but foreget that the food&beverage industry is one of the ONLY areas that has not kept it's pricing in line with inflation & rising costs of supplies & equipment. Which is why the profit margin in a PERFECTLY run, busy restaurant hovers around 5 to 8%.

.... Charity? No one forced you to eat out, no one poured that $200 bottle of wine down your throat. If you feel that tipping is a burden... cook @ home. As to how much to tip? 15 to 20% on THE ENTIRE BILL is considered a standard tip in a fine dinning situation. The server knows how to properly decant the wine, atteneds to your every need, is able to make helpfull & knowledgable suggestions on your meal & wine choices... I reapeat, if you don't WANT these services, EAT @ HOME. As to backing out of the a proper tip because you ordered an expensive bottle of wine...."would you care for another drink, sir? or are you going to hold back a little for the tip?" This, in most cases, COSTS your server money. Most resaurants have a 'tipout' system in place...Where the server must tip out a certain portion of what they make to be shared amongst the other support staff...ie. kitchen, bussers, host, bartender & sometimes management takes a cut too. When I worked @ the 'Blue Water Cafe' in Vancouver BC, we had to tip out 5% of our full sales ring out to such a pool. So, that $400 bottle of wine (with applicable taxes $468) would cost the server $24 just to open it @ your table. It simply comes down to this, the $20 sneakers you bought in 1972 now cost $120 & most cosumers seenm ok with that. but the $20 steak dinner you had in 1972 now costs $35 & folks have a problem with tipping $7 for it, & can't understand why eating out is 'so expensive'.... Be gratefull that restaurants have taken most rising costs on the chin & in the profit margin, so that the public can enjoy a nigh out without needing a line of credit from the bank.... & TIP YOUR SERVER WELL!!!!!

The Restaurant ALWAYS takes the corking fee... & as in my post above, this means that the server then must tip out his other support staff based on that fee.... hope this helps clarify.

Mathew

Again....if the establishment wants to share the losses, they must also share the profits.

What are you saying? That the services you listed above should not be services that we expect and already feel that we are paying for?

In South Florida, where we live and eat out quite a bit, whenever possible, we bring our own wine, and there aren't a handful of waitpersons who attend to all our needs for the most part because their helpful and knowledgeable suggestions were suggested to them by the management only moments before they opened. When the food is delivered, generally they perform what I call the "auction." Who gets the veal? This is for two of us mind you. For this we should tip beyond the call of duty?

Most of the purchased wine comes at room temperature....this means that the AC is turned off at night upon closing and turned back on the next day in the late afternoon. You want me to tip for that $100.00 bottle of wine. At least 85% of the time I ask them to provide an ice bucket for the red wine to bring it to cellar temp. Of course the whites are served too cold as they come right out of the refrig and are then put into an ice bucket. The wines I bring are already at cellar temp and I wouldn't want 95% of the waiters I encounter to decant my wine. They can barely open or even pour it correctly. Stemware...getting a little better, but Libbys still abounds.

The above events limit the choice of restaurants for us. When the service is truly stellar, and it is at several places we go to and request the service personnel we want, we tip very well, corkage or not and we always make sure the waiter and chef in most cases get to taste the wine.

No matter how costly the shoes might be, I don't tip the salesman beyond their cost. The restaurateurs I know personally, some quite well, are happy with the situation as it is, 911 not withstanding. The cash flow is such that they weather many storms. If a line of credit becomes necessary in order to eat out, we will cross that bridge at that time...Of course, competition generally provides a good playing field.

burris

in article bDRUc.23756$ snipped-for-privacy@bignews5.bellsouth.net, burris at snipped-for-privacy@bellsouth.net wrote on 8/18/04 4:29 PM:

I'm reading this post again, as well as your response to another one on the same subject today. I guess I just don't understand why you seem to insist that the relationship between customer and server is the same as between customer and management. It would seem well established that restaurants in the US do not pay servers more than minimum wage (one which, in many states, is lower than the minimum wage for other job categories) and, I think, that their service is usually worth more than that. The 'system', if you will, subsidizes the servers wages with tips. Unless your server owns the restaurant why should he or she pay for your disapproval of the system?

I have my own issues with why the server at a $50 per meal establishment earns so much more than one (who might be better at the job) in a place where the average meal is $20. That, to me, is something more worthy of discussion. To some degree, the more expensive meal may be more complex and require more knowledge as well as a higher level of service..... but I tend to tip a higher % for great service at the lower price place than at the higher.

As I said earlier, I'm no defender of the system. But in reality (where we have to live, like it or not) in US is that IS the system. As I said only in the case of a really offensive waiter have I not tipped. But I've had bad waiters in Paris, and the servis compris insures they got paid just as much as a good one.

I'm having trouble understanding how people can argue that it's acceptable to pay 15% if it's included in price, but react in horror at paying 15% if it's not "required." One can compare the tasting menu prices of the top places in US (FL, Charlie Trotter's, Daniel, etc) to the prices of Taillevent, Plaza Athenee, etc and see that one is generally better off financially paying US &

As to those who find the calculations daunting.....nah, that's too easy a target. :)

Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

Am I the only one not being able to follow the logic of these calculations?

M.

I can't follow the logic in a lot of things that happen in my life.

I'd rather try to understand why stores are already showcasing Xmas products!

Myron (wait a minute! I think I know!)

But we don't have bathroom attendants in most areas and therefore we save on bathroom tips :-)

Thats where we get the better standard of living from...bathroom tip savings.

Michael: Pardon my extrapilation without explaining my thought process, I was deep into a good rant. If you raise server's wages to something considered a living wage... It's the tip of the iceburg. Bussers, Bartenders, Chefs, Sous-Chefs, Managers & even dishwashers will all want their peice of the pie.... Wages would have to go up across the board. All of those increased wages & salaries would be passed on to the customer to pay. The formula (in a perfect world) for restaurants (at least in Canada) is: 33% food cost 33% labour cost 25% hard cost & overhead... allow 1 to 3% for shrinkage & the unforseen... profit margins are low. as to $7...it's 20% of $35...

Mathew

Hey, maybe it's about time we change the subject here! :)

Not only is this illogical (unclear), but the shoe example previously alluded to is wrong. Thanks to outsourcing to the third world, the rate of inflation on apparel has been very low, even negative, in recent years. Housing, services, health care and other rapidly rising prices account for the for three-fold increase in the US consumer price index since the 1970s.

Tom Schellberg

Ricardo

I don't see how there is hidden information here. All parties know what's going on. Wait-service is willing to work for less because they know they will be tipped if they provide reasonable service, and customers know that workers depend on tips for their livlihood.

If the whole system seems dishonest, restaurants could include on their menus and signs "Price of meal includes an equal of gratuity". These restaurants would pay their wait-service a higher wage than others.

It's like comparing a $350/mo apartment without heat with a $400/mo apartment with heat included. (Wyoming rental rates, not New York) Everyone knows that the extra $50 pays for heat.

Tom Schellberg

Tom: I was simply pointing out that the Restaurant industry has not seen the 3 fold price increase that most other retail industries have seen since the 70's. Instead, food & beverage outlets have seen their profit margins shrink drastically... Please see above post re: deep into a good rant.

Mathew

] But we don't have bathroom attendants in most areas and therefore we save on ] bathroom tips :-) ] ] Thats where we get the better standard of living from...bathroom tip ] savings. ]

At the main ballroom of the Waldorf in NY there is a bathroom attendant. I've worked there many times, and can vouch that he looks after paying customers as well as tuxedoed musicians. One cannot say that the standard of living at the Waldorf is low. On the other hand the public bathroom at Notre Dame de Paris has several attendants, tipping is obligatory regardless of the social standing of the patron. (I have rarely tipped at the Waldorf, honestly.)

On that meal yes, but of course there is still an element of competition involved: they are less likely to be promoted within the organization, less likely to get better wait-jobs, less likely to get along well with co-workers. In short, it's exactly like any salaried job anywhere. One might extend your argument to say that, say, fund raisers should always be paid on a per-project basis, because otherwise they become demotivated. Obviously there are other motivations that prompt successful job performance.

On the whole I prefer the french system of including the tip, although there are clearly arguments in both directions, and figuring the tip on an expensive bottle is an interesting one to think about!

] Salut/Hi Bill, ] ] le/on Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:04:46 GMT, tu disais/you said:- ] ] [] ] >While you are in the area, lunch at the CIA. It is about food. Chez Panisse ] >in SF is a place that should be near to your heart since they specialize in ] >very fresh veggies. ] ] I've heard good things about both. Depending upon how big my tips are ] between now and October, maybe I can afford to visit one or more! ]

Don't miss either if you can help it. The problem is that FL is very, very hard to get a reservation. At one time they were accepting only on the day _exactly_

] >Hopefully you will not have to endure the type of service that has become ] >overly popular in the US. "Hi, I am Taffy and I will be your waitress". ] ] We had a thread on this some years ago. I remember holding forth on the ] subject at inimitable length. I think I might be tempted to reply "Well Hi, ] Tammy, I'm Ian, do you want to know about my piles?" ]

Unfortunately piles and farmers are unknown by that name to wider america. What's the US slang equivilent, anyone know?

-E

At the main ballroom of the Waldorf in NY there is a bathroom attendant. I've worked there many times, and can vouch that he looks after paying customers as well as tuxedoed musicians. One cannot say that the standard of living at the Waldorf is low. On the other hand the public bathroom at Notre Dame de Paris has several attendants, tipping is obligatory regardless of the social standing of the patron. (I have rarely tipped at the Waldorf, honestly.)

Hmmm... when does tipping occur? The moment one sets foot in the bathroom or once hands are washed? Just wondering as this may become ridiculous none the least.

Monika The clean freak