I can't be sure, but I think I have noticed low levels of red wine, without obvious signs of seepage around the top of the cork. Wondered if it was related to some chemical process.
But if it is wine getting out, why cannot air get in? Besides, if the pressure is mainained in the gap, something would need to fill it. I believe this is an arguiment that has been used for porosity in cork contributing to the aging process.
Of course the pressure in the gap might simply reduce, or a gas may be generated from within the wine? Has the research been done?
(I am not trying to argue from any particular standpoint here, just trying to establish some facts.)
Given how much fine wine has risen in prices, the "penalty" for corked wine is higher than it was before - so, while the preservative/aging process has to be redone for the screw-cap or crown cap - it might actually offer a less risky purchase.
I saw that Bonny Doon winery had the wines I saw at the wine shop with a Stevlin style enclosure - hurrah in that I enjoy that winery.
_Wine and Spirits_ magazine did a non-scientific analysis of screw-cap vs. non-screw cap wines. I think their conclusion was that wines age differently, and probably need to have sulfite levels and other techniques examined.
As to ageing, I am getting tired to quote Peter Gago (Penfold's chief winemaker) once more (how often did I cite him already?) who, after 9 and 10 years of test with premium reds, concluded: "Reds under screw caps seem to have a slightly different ageing pattern: like bottles from a rather cool cellar compared to a normal one."
And it's a well-known fact that sulfite levels (and a few other factors) have to be inspected closely. Screw caps are less permissive than corks with this regard.
Michael, my main concern with the new non cork closures is this issue with air. If air plays a roll in the aging of wine with cork products, isn't this a limitation of the new stelvins and other non cork closures?
Will this affect aging. I agree that TCA is an issue but will the solution be worse than the problem?
No. The very best corks don't let ullage happen and are as tight as alternative closures.
Definitely not! AU/NZ have 30 years plus of experience with screw caps, champagne even more with crow cap closures. Every, I repeat: every finding points into the right direction. Once again I point you to this chapter of Tyson Stelzer's book. Please read it.
thanks. Also, my son was accepted at UNC-Chapel Hill Business School and in September applies for the exchange aspect to study at your business school in Vienna. Therefore next Spring I might get to meet you when I visit him :-)
Michael, We seem to be running circles here. My first post in this thread was to the effect that both reductive (anaerobic) and oxidative (aerobic) processes contribute to the aging of wine. I have no doubt that many of these processes are unaffected by the closure and operate just fine under Stelvin -- but I am *not* convinced that the aging under Stelvin will reproduce the same flavors as aging under cork. Please note that I am not advocating for the retention of cork here. In fact, it strikes me as similar to the argument put forth about analog vs. digital music sources: they do sound different, and people do differ on which they prefer (the music analogy isn't perfect, since there is a quantifiable measure of quality -- THD -- that is totally lacking in wine appreciation). But, much like music sources, I have no doubt that as winemakers become more familiar with the aging of wine under screwcaps, they will be able to adjust for that and hopefully retain their ability to make ageworthy wines.
Well, the glass of a wine bottle is significantly thicker than the ampules to which I refer, so that already slow process will become glacial. I have few doubts, however, that a hermetically sealed bottle of wine will still show oxidation after a millenium or two of storage! ;-)
I don't see anything in what Mark L. said that rejects the idea that reduction has a role - even a primary role - in wine bottle ageing. He only said that any *oxidative* processes taking place must get oxygen from somewhere. It's tough to argue with that!
May I propose to read the emanations of someone much more close to the subject, Tyson Stelzer, e.g. here
or here
or here
(use search function to Tyson's article "Are we really getting screwed?")
Very interesting three postings in the same thread:
(Use search function with "tyson"; the third posrting has an extensive literature list.)
Another point: There are bottles retreived from shipwrecks that have been proven faultlessly preserved (if the cork had withstood the salt water). Obviously no oxigen influx here.
"dick" in news:Wzn0c.26509$ snipped-for-privacy@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Forgive me if I intrude into what may be a private conversation. But I did wish to speak up for UNC-CH in multiple ways.
First, gastronomically, the "triangle" region of North Carolina is one of the gems of North America, I have enjoyed my many visits there. From the Colonial Inn in Hillsborough to the little all-purpose Fowler's delicatessan and wine shop in Durham (I hope it still thrives!) to the little independent restaurants in CH. At Fowler's, multiple generations offered equipment and ingredients and insightful wines all crammed into one little shop. One time I saw a senior Mr. Fowler (looking like a retired baseball pro for some reason, that was my offhand impression) at a cheese counter with a large block of cream cheese, offering samples. I quipped from a scene late in Mann's novel _Felix Krull_ involving a conversation across a block of cream cheese. Without hesitation, Mr. Fowler retorted from _Buddenbrooks._
Second, Internet-historically. UNC-CH was one of the early prominent sites on the Internet, and its near-dominance in early neswgroup postings is not unrelated to the following. Newsgroups, such as the one you are now reading, were a creation of Steve Bellovin, a student at UNC-CH, in 1979.
"Mark Lipton" in news: snipped-for-privacy@purdue.edu...
This is, I assume, an innocent analogy rather than any subtle gambit to induce engaging exchanges. (I don't know how much past history of postings on other newsgroups, of past decades, you have read, Mark, and whether you knew about some of the people who got their fill of the Usenet over such topics as mentioned in passing above.) That's what I'm assuming, anyway.
But while I'm busy assuming, let me salute also one of the Usenet's chief candidates for sainthood (application to the Vatican for Stage-1 now pending). That is Jim Johnston (originally rabbit!jj), one of the very first contributors on net.wines, one of the first contributors on many of the newsgroups. He still contributes occasionally despite everything. (Congregation for the Whatsis, please note.) His own work is in psychoacoustics and information coding for audio, and he is also blessed or cursed with extraordinarily subtle hearing -- thus sitting precisely on the razor's edge of technology and perception. This made him a target for every conceivable complexion of armchair expertise (which the Usenet draws in as a dry cellar draws moisture). His combination of skills put him at odds with practically everybody interested in consumer audio, especially in those cases when he was the only person in sight with any idea of what he was talking about. For more than 20 years, with more or less patience (saints are, after all, human), Jim argued the ancient and unpopular position that useful discussion of a subject demands knowledge of the subject. He was lucky not to be killed (though the latter might admittedly -- no offense, Jim -- have accelerated the sainthood process, notoriously gradual. :-)
I think it won't even be as difficult as all that - but I agree about the analog vs. digital thing.
As an audiophile, I noticed that he type of setup one must have to sound "good" with an analog source such as an LP, is a bit different than what would be required for a well mastered CD. Both can sound excellent, and to most people's ears, probably both would sound great, but to the aficionado, one is preferred to the other. (I am one of those rare geeks that like digital better than analog *if* the mastering is decent - CD's tend to be rather over compressed lately)
We just need to understand how to age and work with the fine wine under screwcap - the nice part is that it would offer a promise of better quality control. As a otherwise nice bottle of Burgundy we opened and had this weekend - it has cork taint. Made me a bit upset - since I paid almost USD20 for the bottle ! I can't wait for good screwcaps!!
DrinksForum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.