Variations in Humidity

Salut/Hi Michael Pronay,

le/on 29 Feb 2004 11:40:34 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

And what seeps in to replace the wine that seeps out?

Incorrect. There are 2 types of polymerization-- oxidative and non-oxidative. It is the non-oxidative which is normally associated with the polymerization of tannins in quality table wines.

Craig Winchell GAN EDEN Wines

Craig, Can you steer me to any sort of reference for this? I truly cannot imagine what chemical process is occuring that would polymerize phenols without oxidation taking place.

Mark Lipton

It comes from basketball. Literally it is a play where the player with the ball leaps so high that he (I've never seen this done by a "she") actually is able to push the ball downward through the net and score two points.

Figuratively it has come to mean (in the US anyway) something that has been accomplished completely, unquestionably, and with some sense of finality. In the posting in question, the fact that bottles of wine that are still good can be found in old shipwrecks is considered (rightly or wrongly) to be proof positive of the correctness of the poster's argument.

Hope this helps.

Vino To reply, add "x" between letters and numbers of e-mail address.

Air, of course. But I guess we had that already.

M.

["Slam dunk"]

Yes, thanks to you all!

M.

The question of cork letting oxygen in was done to death a while back in this NG. Most (or at least the most vocal) people were of the view that corks were not porous to oxygen. This surprised me somewhat, but a Google seemed to bear out this orthodoxy.

FWIW, I am with you Michael - if alcohol gets out then air must be able to get in. Alcohol molecules are bigger than oxygen molecules.

Seems to me the issue is rather how much air actually enters, and to what effect.

It's not the alcohol only that evaporates, it's water too.

We have the paradox that all three possibilities

- Ullaged bottles (with air inside)

- bottles with perfect corks (no ullage over decades)

- bottles from shipwrecks

Can produce perfectly matured wine (although the risk of madeirisation = oxidation is higher, the bigger the ullage, of course).

I don't see any problems for crown and screw caps not coming to exactly the same result.

M.

P.S.: For the first time a sig:

Salut/Hi Michael Pronay,

le/on 1 Mar 2004 11:50:13 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

Humm, this is where I have some doubts Michael. We both have some experience with older bottles. Can you put your hand on your heart and say that you've ever seen a bottle over 20 years old, with no ullage at all. I can't. This leads me to the inescapable conclusion that NO cork makes a perfectly airtight seal. Given the work of Paster, which showed that the aging of wines was linked to oxygen, and Mark's view - as a professor of organic chemistry - that tannins are unlikely to polymerise out of solution in total absence of oxygen, I think it's unwise to be quite so black and white about corks - when it comes to long aging wines.

I have heard anecdotal evidence that such bottles are good, but not seen any hard evidence from experts. If you have references on this, I'd be most grateful.

Of course. I'm not saying that there are NO risks associated with ullage in wine, but that it seems to me to be _part of the normal aging process_, as we have experienced it over the 200 years we've aged wine under cork.

Corks are not meant to last more than 25 years. A good quality cork under 25 years OUGHT to be a perfect seal. Alas, there can be no guarantees of that.

I agree with Michael that the sooner we get rid of cork, the better.

Mike (who just emptied a corked 2000 Vouvray sec by Foreau into the sink, GRRRRRRR!)

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link

Humm, this is where I have some doubts Michael. We both have some experience with older bottles. Can you put your hand on your heart and say that you've ever seen a bottle over 20 years old, with no ullage at all. I can't. Yes I can. Pichon-Lalande 1982, seen 1.5 years ago in Paris (Taillevent) at a lunch given by the owners. These four bottles (coming directly from the château) had absolutely perfect fill levels (and probably were chosen for this reason).

Don't the top wineries recork their wine every 20 to 25 years Michael? I remember a TV program on Mouton some 20 years back and I am certain that the Baron explained this was policy in his cellar.

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Is it? Fish do get oxygen... Now we need a discursion on oxygen molecules being pushed in through the cork by high pressure on the outside - anybody up to that task? Anders

*whew* That's quite a reading list, Michael, but I have done my best to wade through it. I agree that Tyson Stelzer's (and Peter Dado's) articles make for very interesting reading. However, I think that on balance they support my view that corks do allow some (small) amount of oxygen into the bottle. I find it especially noteworthy that Stelzer cites a fourfold slower development of the Stelvin-sealed wines. That's not a trivial difference, and I'm damned if I can think of another explanation for that difference if not the greater exclusion of oxygen under Stelvin closure. What I cannot answer is whether the greater exclusion of oxygen is better or worse for a wine -- my point was simply that it's different. In fact, I'm in favor of adoption of Stelvin closures worldwide. Like you, I think that consumer choice is optimal in this matter. I would like to be able to buy e.g. 2000 Lynch-Bages under both cork and Stelvin and do a comparitive tasting in 2020 or so... ;-) [I also found the tone of the discussions on Mark Squires's board to be less collegial than what we've got here, possibly because you and I are no strangers to one another; still, I appreciate the lack of ad hominem attacks here and think that we should give ourselves a collective pat on the back for good behavior]

I agree. Like Ian, I would be fascinated to see the results of a comparitive tasting of the same wine, one bottle stored in impeccable conditions (a la Glammis castle) and the other recovered from a shipwreck. Of course, we'd have to have at least 6 bottles of each to factor out bottle variation, but I think that the results would be most revealing. Perhaps the illustrious Herr Rodenstock could actually arrange such a thing? I'd be willing to fly out to Vienna for such an event ;-)

As always, it's fascinating to discuss such matters with you, Michael!

Mark Lipton

Craig, I've done some looking, and perhaps I now understand this statement. There is one type of polymerization that results from the cross-linking of proanthocyanidins with acetaldehyde. If that is what you mean by non-oxidative, then I feel that it simply begs the question since acetaldehyde is the product of alcohol oxidation. I realize that there might be various "storage forms" of acetaldehyde, but their ultimate source is almost certainly an oxidation event. Am I missing something here?

Mark Lipton

Hi, Ian -

Actually, I suspect you meant to say "no _increase_ in ullage". Correct?

If that's the case, I have definitely seen bottles that remained at the same fill level for decades. Some of the Heitz "Martha's Vineyard" bottlings come to mind, as well as other top Cabernets. I really can't account for that except to assume that any bottle that experiences an increase in ullage (most) either has a defective cork or a cork that has become saturated with wine. For some reason, not all corks soak up a significant amount of the contents, but I have certainly pulled corks that were noticeably heavy with liquid (wine).

Tom S

Wat do you mean by the so2 is consumed? What happens to the SO2 after bottling/

wine can serve as

gradient. It's been

oxygen into them over

money is on the

No. Afaik, they have stopped that long ago - for risk of TCA contamination.

M.