Zinfandel Thoughts

California Zinfandel is one of my favorite wines, but I've been pondering something about it lately. Maybe it was the extra time off around the holidays, giving my brain time to reflect instead of react. Regardless, I know we have some real die-hard zin drinkers in this group, and I was hoping someone would be technically proficient, too. There has been much discussion in the past on this topic, but not from a technical perspective.

My question is, why is Zin typically not an ageworthy wine? Ageworthy in the sense that it rarely improves beyond a few years. Improves in the sense of not losing it's fruit while gaining complexity. The general consensus is that these wines do not improve very often with long term age, despite some with high tannins, high alcohol levels and thick, viscous textures. For myself, I have not been into wine long enough to have tried to age Zin 15 to

20 years, but I have seen a general consensus amongst this group as well as various wine critics. I believe it was Bill who mentioned that he has experienced or heard of a few Geyserville's from the 1970's that closed down for a long time and then opened back up.

I'm curious as to thoughts, opinions and facts on the subject,

Dark Helmet

Reply to
Dark Helmet
Loading thread data ...

  1. Zin is often attractive because of the up-front fruit it presents in youth
  2. Zin (and everything else) gradually loses that fruit
  3. Once the fruit is gone, wine may or may not have anything else going for them. In the case of the majority of zins, they do not.
  4. an aged Zin becomes much more claret like and much less zin-like. Not everyone likes that.

I think that this situation may well be shared by the new pack of Australian wines - 2000-2002 that certainly feature amazing levels of sweet fruit, but may lack the underpinnings to benefit much by age.

Remember, whether a wine improves with age is a value judgement. Someone who loves fresh sweet fruit above all will laugh at 'complexity' and 'subtlety' and call the wine dead. Therefor you can end up with two people arguing that the same wine was best when young or when older.

Reply to
Bill Spohn

What Bill said. Zin is a fruity wine and when the fruit fades there is not much left and what is left is rather unpleasant. Usually ash, vegetable, and/or animal-like flavors remain. It's a characteristic of the flavor of the grape itself. I am curious what will become of the zin blends many are making now. Mixing zin with a grape that ages well like mourvedre or syrah may prove interesting. They certainly drink well young.

Dimitri

Reply to
D. Gerasimatos

Bill's response was right on.

Another factor is acidity. While good acidity is not absolutely crucial to aging, it helps. Very ripe high alcohol zins tend to be fairly fat.

Zinfandel reminds me in some respects of Grenache- will few exceptions (Rayas maybe being one) all-grenache wines seem to me to be best drunk young. Dimitri's question re additions is interesting (as Grenache-based wines with substantial amounts of syrah or mouvedre, as common in Chateauneuf-du-Pape, can age well). The Ridge Geyserville in most vintages doesn't actually qualify as a Zinfandel (75%). Even when it did, there were substantial amounts of Petite Sirah, etc in most vintages.

And Bill is very ripe that one man's "complexity" is another's "dead" . I have a good friend- French, very knowledgable about wine - who I don't open non-blockbuster aged red wines for- he considers them all dead. Doesn't mean he is wrong (nor that I'm wrong), just we have different tastes in these wines. We have plenty of Alsaces to agree on, though :)

Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

Reply to
Dale Williams

Yes, the Geyserville wines from Ridge age well.

I still have some old zins in the cellar - Monterey Peninsula from the 70s, and the odd old Shenandoah from that period, and I thouroughly enjoyed the Mirrasou

1977. You take a big risk when you age that long with a zin, though.

Medium term ageing seems to work well - I am still drinking my 1993/4 wines that others have pronounced dead - I pronounce them more interesting!

Reply to
Bill Spohn

I resemble that remark!

Reply to
Bill Spohn

: My question is, why is Zin typically not an ageworthy wine? Ageworthy in : the sense that it rarely improves beyond a few years. Improves in the sense : of not losing it's fruit while gaining complexity. The general consensus is : that these wines do not improve very often with long term age, despite some : with high tannins, high alcohol levels and thick, viscous textures.

Mr Helmut,

the way the best zins are being made these days would suggest drinking them YOUNG (3-5 years). In the old days (80's and older), zins

*could* be aged to a point where they would drop their fruit and resemble generic claret, but that was when 14% was considered 'high alcohol'. With many single vineyard zins now coasting at 16%, I would think --although I haven't experimented yet -- that with age the luscious fruit fades and all you have left would be hot, red wine. Not a good recipie for an aging curve in my book.

Mark S

Reply to
<mjsverei

perspective.

I tried a monster Zin this weekend as well, and was just floored by its power - a 1998 Hartford Court Dina's Vineyard. A whopping

15.2% - and the best way I can describe the nose is a punch - definitely clears your head. Imagine this taste - a dark chocolate & espresso covered blackberry and a milk chocolate covered cherry from Starbucks. Long finish. This 98 was throwing sediment similar to fresh ground black pepper in the last glass. I believe (it was a gift) it's around $35 US.

(-thanks to Google's advanced newsgroup search engine!)

formatting link

Anyway, I believe that wine could still age another few years and be great.

Reply to
Kirk-O-Scottland

Man, I type too fast for my brain sometimes. Everyone here know Bill is quite balanced. Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

Reply to
Dale Williams

Although unlike Cloudy Bay, my acidity (some would say acerbity) tends to increase with age....;-)

Reply to
Bill Spohn

Well, I agree on all the points above, but let's expand on #2. It seems to me that a quality zin (or grenache as has been stated) that has been aged seems to lose it's fruit very fast and is usually none the better complexity-wise either. I realize that everyone judges wine by their own tastes, so let me state that I enjoy aged wines that do not lose all their fruit while increasing their complexity. Wines such as mourvedre, shiraz and cab can certainly fall into this arena.

So, what I'm really after is why, from a technical standpoint, does zin (or grenache) tend to lose it's fruit sooner than other wines? And, why does it not help the complexity? Is it lack of acidity, lack of some other crucial chemical component, something in the winemaking process, etc?

Dark Helmet

Reply to
Dark Helmet

--Bill Spohn's excellent discourse snipped--

How about this for a rationale? It is only recently (maybe last ten years?) that there have been a broad spectrum of quality zinfandel producers, so there is not that big a history of aged zins. Certainly Ridge and Ravenswood have been doing their thing, but beyond that I don't know who we can look at from twenty years ago.

I attended a Ravenswood tasting about four years ago that offered 38 Ravenswood's, mostly separate vineyard bottlings from as far back as

1980 (which isn't that far back, is it?) The older flight of wines was flat in terms of fruit, but not at all unpleasant and certainly offered some claret-like nuances. The mid-age flights were great and the recent bottlings could be contrasted for their up-front fruit and potential for holding.

All that being said, I pulled a cork on a '97 Ridge Geyserville last week and while it was still a powerhouse zin, it seemed to have become a bit musty--maybe mildly corked? Same night had a Titus '99 Napa Valley Zin which was incredible and hopefully will be good for ten more years.

As for grenache, I think of grenache as a much lighter flavored wine than zin. Certainly I've never encountered a 15-17% grenache. Maybe Turley should try?

Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" Smithsonian Institution Press ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Reply to
Ed Rasimus

Keep an eye out for Chapoutier's Barbe Rac, a 100% Grenache CN du P that costs a lot, but kicks ass and ages 20 years.

The Fifteen is a Grenache with 15% alcohol. It lacks the longevity of the Barbe Rac, but doesn't lack concentration!

There are lots of other grenache based wines with a lot of clout if you start looking for them.

Reply to
Bill Spohn

perspective.

Had to reply.

Zin, my favorite wine, is a fruit bomb. Know what I mean? Back in the 1880's it was made in Sonoma and Mendicno. Just Italian drinking wine with meals.

Rich

Reply to
Rich R

Mark

I'm not sure why 14% Zin wines would age but 16% Zin would not.

It may be that the high alcohol seems out of balance to the sudued fruit, or it may be that the overripe fruit loses its acidity, a natural preservative.

Tom Schellberg

Reply to
Xyzsch

CN du P is a region that I haven't explored, partly because there's so much wine/so litle time, and partly because a lot doesn't show up on the local shelves in Colorado.

And, I've reached the stage in life that wines with 20 year potential don't rise high on my list. I don't even buy green bananas any more.

Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" Smithsonian Institution Press ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Reply to
Ed Rasimus

Ed, where in Colorado are you? I have found in certain areas of Colorado quite the selection of CDP and other wines from the Rhone area. I would also add that although a number of these wines age well, many are excellent in their youth. If you enjoy wines based on primarily Syrah and/or Grenache and/or Mourvedre, this region has some great wines at all price levels. Everyone has their own tastes, of course, but I consider the wines of the Rhone to be one of the best values in the world. I would guess that Rhone wines tend to be good values because they are less widely known amongst casual wine drinkers.

Dark Helmet

Reply to
Dark Helmet

It would appear that I need to set out on my search for the Holy Grail of Zins..."1998 Hartford Court Dina's Vineyard".

Vintages? CLO? Cheers?

Sean

Reply to
Sean E. Slindee

True enough. You can say the same for any other varietal or blend of varietals though.

Also true.

That last part is the crux of the matter. I'm not disputing the truth of it; I just don't understand why that appears to be so, and neither did the originator of this thread.

I don't agree that aged Zin necessarily becomes "claret like". I *like* aged clarets. Most Zins simply lose their fruit and fall apart with age, becoming much less interesting/pleasant in the process. Zin that improves with age _does_ exist, but it's a lot rarer (per capita) than good aged Bordeaux, Cabernet, Pinot Noir, Burgundy, Chianti, etc. Why should that be? That, I believe, was the original question.

Maybe, but we won't know for sure for a decade or more.

I maintain that this debate doesn't exist among people who really know wines well. How many people do you know, whose opinion you respect, that would proclaim a well cellared bottle of '66 Lafite (e.g.) "dead"?

Tom S

Reply to
Tom S

I believe that David Bruce has already done that - probably over 20 years ago. I heard that it was delicious.

Tom S

Reply to
Tom S

DrinksForum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.