Another rest period.

Trevor - Just some old names gone and new names added. It's still winemaking to me. Bill Frazier Olathe, Kansas USA

BTW - the Kansas City area looks better to me than ever (lived here over 60 yrs)...no hurricanes, no earthquakes, no real blizzards...just 4 seasons and lots of sun.

Hi Trevor, I know what you mean but it's winemaking time in North America; I appreciated the help I have gotten in the past from this group and return the favor when able. Take care.

Joe

In article , William Frazier writes

Agreed Bill. This is a most helpful and instructive group with very little of the rancour seen in some Usenet groups. I have learned much in the few weeks I have been here and I intend to continue doing that.

Careful, Bill. Saying something like that is just _begging_ for a twister! =>8^O

Tom S

Trevor, if you are not learning anything new perhaps you could suggest some subjects that you would like to learn more about. Maybe you can provide that "Spark" that you find missing.

Hi, Trevor - Enjoy your vacation/rest. Somebody will fill in for you as best as they can.

Tom S

Indeed, this seems a recurring theme. (In fact, it was only a couple of years ago when Trevor brought this up previously - and had a break from the group.) I suppose that's just the way things are here - some people just don't spend the time doing searches or reading the FAQ. But I would say that for the rest of us this frustration has been worth it for the occassional nugget.

I would agree with that, but then perhaps it is actually more to do with where my w> if you are not learning anything new perhaps you could suggest some

Fair enough, but often I feel the responses to more unusual questions are not very insightful/knowledgable. That is not meant as a criticism of responsees, just a comment about where people's winemaking is at on a philosophical level and what *kind* of questions are asked. Largely, the frequenters of this group share some broad-ranging cross-over areas, yet tend to never explore certain others. I think that's more a matter of luck with UseNet.

Ben

In article , snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.co.uk writes

As a fairly new contributor to this group, I have raised points which have probably been asked often before. I still do have some fairly basic issues I would like to discuss with more experienced winemakers, just one example being extended fermentation. I would not wish to do that to anybody's annoyance however and I would be only too ready to read relevant FAQs. Could somebody please give me the location. TIA.

To tell you the truth I'm pretty sure no one is maintaining it now, but here is Dons original link.

Joe

One think I really enjoy about this newsgroup is the LACK of replies stating read the f...... FAQ, as.....

This is the typical response one finds on computer language newsgroups, operating systems newsgroups etc but so far, fortunately, this is NOT the predominant response on this newsgroup.

For those willing to help newcomers, I applaud, even if it means that some more knowledgeage may find the answers boring and repetitive. I have been surprised, however, that even though I know the answer a "Newbie" may ask, the responses often shed new light on issues or related issues that would not be covered by just reading the f...... FAQs and I myself sometimes learn something new or reconsider some things I THOUGHT i knew or understood.

In article , Paul E. Lehmann writes

Thanks Paul. I have looked at the FAQ, it is a massive and comprehensive document containing answers to thousands of questions complete with facts, figures, statistics etc. It is a vital reference work for wine-makers at all levels. The author/s are to be congratulated on the extent of their knowledge and for the amount of work they have put into preparing the document.

At the same time it seemed an apposite reason why [quote] some people just don't spend the time doing searches or reading the FAQ [unquote] when they can have a friendly discussion in this group with helpful people who can deal with their problem at their level. They can then go to the FAQ if they wish and check the details and accuracy of the advice given, thus having a double source of good information.

I agree with Paul. I do not really care for the groups that maintain FAQ's and expect people to go to them. They tend to develop into experts only groups that come across as being a bit snooty. New winemakers do not understand that their question is just subtlety different from someone else's. They think it is really different. I would rather the group help everyone in real time.

I like Trevor and enjoy his posts but I differ with him on this topic. I also agree with Paul that maybe those of us that have been around a long time should be posting some issues for discussion that are beyond the basics. It would keep the group from going stale.

Ray

You know, i will throw my hat in, becasue I am most likely the one that answers new users/redundtant/basic/faq covered questions. My response is....

Why not? It is not like there is an excessive amount of scroll here. There are only a couple of posts a day, even if you only check in once a week that is not all that much to read....and you can skip anything you do not find interesting.

On the other hand, just by answering the questions as they get asked, it allows for users to get relatively quick current opinions on a subject, even one as basic as sanitation. The roll call of current readers changes frequently, as people learn enough they stop reading the group. It happens. I would not let the threat of someone not reading detract from the dozens of people that do read it. It is a public group, lets not make it a stale elietist only group that never has anything new or interested poisted.

Quote....(Indeed, this seems a recurring theme. (In fact, it was only a couple of years ago when Trevor brought this up previously - and had a break from

the group.) I suppose that's just the way things are here - some people just don't spend the time doing searches or reading the FAQ}......end Quote

Hi ...just a thought here but the internet is such a time suck at the best of times why should we spend hours searching page after page of search results??....should we now feel guilty about repeating an question that was asked a few months or even a few years ago?...I think not ....I for one will ask away Jose.....andy j

I don't actually have a problem with newbies asking (repeated) questions here - just ignore them if you don't want to read them. Nor do I think that people should have to visit the FAQ rather than ask a question: I think the responses often given in such cases can actually bring new insight (as Paul noted). Even roughly the topic of *this* thread has been discussed before! (e.g., "Trevor A Panther" thread, 31 Mar 2002 and "Byeeeee!" thread, 30 Mar 2002). This group has always been open, friendly, and happy to help and I would hate for that to change. I was simply trying to give a possible *reason* for Trevor's complaint.

Regarding advanced items of discussion: they often go unresponded to or else receive insufficient answers. I expect simply because the experience/expertise is lacking *at the time of the posting*. Thus, posting questions beyond the basics is often a lost cause. I don't think this group should ever stop responding to newbies, but I do think the balance could be made up by added weight on the more advanced side too. I don't think that would turn the group elitist at all.

Ben

A "newbie perspective". I always try to title my queries with a "newbie" category when possible. My experience in this group has been totally positive to date. I also have always received timely relevant feedback to my queries. I believe my first batch of fresh fruit wine will likely be a success and in no small part to the valuable feedback I received from members of this group. Perhaps there are too many "How do I ??" and not enough thank you very much. So,,, thank you very much.

You want elitist? check out alt.food.wine now THAT's elitist. You gotta wear a bullet proof vest to voice a contrary opinion on that group. It blows me that so many who merely taste the wine have so much more to critisize about it than those of us (even at the most basic level) who endure the rainy summers, hail, mold and frost of grape growing, and then struggle with stuck fermentations and wrong pH and and hydrogen sulfide and acidity of vinification.

This group can't get elitist. Anyone who has had to dump liters of spoiled wine, and then hand a 400 dollar barrel to his wife as a flower pot because the bacteria makes it useless for anything else will tell you grape growing and winemaking is too much of a humiliating experience to allow elitism. Let the questions come, simple or complex. If you've got the passion there is no such thing as a stupid question. Even the basic ones. That's what makes this community so cool. To coin the expression of my next door neighbour: "dare to fail".

That's an invitation.

The beauty of it is, when you can ask any question about wine or grapes (or fruit) without embarrassment and get a decent answer that enhances both your dignity and your batch.

Jeff