Distilled Water

It seems to me that we are talking about entirely different things here.

Are we measuring pH or TA? Because I thought we established in another thread that there was no reason whatsoever to measure TA when when have a magical meter with which to measure pH.

Since the difference between a pH of 3.0 and 3.4 is quite significant, with respect to the taste of the wine, and with respect to it's ability to sustain malic fermentation, a meter with a +/- 0.2 error is NOT providing a meaningful result. [A reading of 3.2 on such a meter only indicates a value *somewhere* between 3.0 and 3.4!]

With respect to determining the pH of water, you cannot do it with the inexpensive meter being discussed. You need a meter with a special electrode, which is very expensive. And you need to use special laboratory procedures, such as the addition of a tiny amount of (pure) KCl, which will increase ionic strength to the sample and improve response time.

But the pH of pure water is 7.0, so I'm not following why you wish to raise it to 8.2, or why you want to add NaOH in the first place. I thought the preferred procedure was to simply (and I quote) "hit it with tartaric until the target pH is reached"?

Furthermore, if there is "no real difference in TA between pH 8 and pH

What am I missing here?

Hmmm, once again, I believe we are talking about entirely different things.

Didn't the originally poster want to use distilled water to dilute his red-wine sample, so that he could better detect the end-point with a phenothalen and NaOH test?

If so, what earthly good would bringing the pH of the diluent up to

And, if he has access to a pH meter, why do a hydroxide titration? Why not just measure the pH and "hit it with tartaric until the target pH is reached" as stated in the other thread as though it were so obvious it didn't require mention?

Furthermore, if an error of +/- 0.2 is acceptable, why not just use low-cost no-calibration-or-special-storage-required litmus papers?

I seem to recall using distilled and de-ionized water directly out of the bottle when I studied chemistry 40 years ago. I don't recall carbonic acid be a problem. But that was a long time ago.

Guess the disolving of CO2 in water is a recent discovery :-)

BTW, about 35 years ago I don't even remember the Chemistry instructor's name, just his habit of leaving the SO2 generator running.

I think we somewhat drifted off of the orginal thread, and this has degraded into a distillation thread with distilled water under tones.

Doesn't change the fact that one should neutralize distilled water before doing a titration.

Sure.

My point was concerning the whole thread which centered around starting with water at pH 7, which is unnecessary if you adjust to phenopthalein and titrate to a color endpoint, which is much faster and simpler for me to do it that using a pH meter, which is much more accuracy than I need.

For the record, I do TAs for the record only so I can communicate a little better with my growers. Every once in a long while I'll run one past harvest just out of curiososity, but as Fred has pointed out in a most eloquent way, what matters most with TA is whether it taste alright.

clyde

The claim of yours that I was responding to is the following:

"Why is +/- 0.2 "fine" for titrations? One titrates until one reaches the endpoint of 8.2 pH. If there is a +/- 0.2 inaccuracy in the reading, an indicated 8.2 can be anywhere from 8.0-8.4. If this accuracy were sufficient, one could simply use litmus paper.

Even +/- 0.1 is borderline, since an indicated reading of 3.2 could be anywhere from 3.1 - 3.3."

My claim above is that in titrating wine or musts, +/- 0.2 pH is just fine, for all the reasons I gave above. Tiny changes in additions of NaOH give LARGE changes in pH near the endpoint of a titration of weak acids with strong base. Those tiny changes in additon of NaOH are further minimized by the math (mulitplication by 0.75).

Dave

Are you guys saying that if I bring my PH to 3.4 by adding Tartaric acid, I will have the right acidity? Louise:o)

I said I didn't remember, not that it wasn't a factor. Some days I don't remember my name. Good thing it's written on my driver's license. :)

Ok. Will do. [Couldn't I just degassify it, instead?]

Louise - As others have written, if you have a pH meter you don't need distilled water to dilute the juice in order to find the titration endpoint. Just for the record, though, in order to be technically accurate the water you add to the juice would have to first itself titrated to the endpoint - i.e., pH 8.2. But just about nobody does that, in fact many claim you don't need to! So the error they are introducing is much larger than you would be using purified water at pH 7.3. In short, your water is fine for the purpose.

- Mark W.

This may or may not bring your TA to it's "target", but the consensus seems to be that the pH is a much more important figure. Conversely, bringing the TA to the correct range will probably (but not necessarily) bring the pH into the correct range. But if pH is the more important value, it makes sense to adjust it directly.

Assuming the preceding discussion to be correct, if you take a measured sample of must, and measure the pH, you can add Tartaric acid to LOWER the pH, and Calcium or Potassium Carbonate to INCREASE the pH, until your target pH is met. Then, if you kept track of how many grams of acid or carbonate were added, you can add the proportional weight/volume amount to the main must.

This procedure seems to be much simpler and less error prone than titrating to determine the TA, computing the adjustment to be made, and then testing again to see how accurate your calculations were.

Hi Louise

Yup - That's about it. You can tinker with the TA all you like so long as you don't allow the pH to drift outside the "acceptable" range. Which is why Clyde (et al - including myself) seldom take TA readings and rely on taste instead. HTH

Frederick South Central PA ;o)

The general statement to add tartaric acid until the right pH of 3.4

Probably had other things to do at the time...

I didn't recall ANY fruit being mentioned.

Well they go together so it's strange to try and separate them. My point is that there's a compromise which is (fruit) base and taste dependant.

Yeahyeah, again, it wasn't ment personally.

I do make wine from different fruit every year, then it's difficult to judge what the right acid level should be for my personal taste. Yes, I adjust with the TA in mind, but make a note of the pH. Next year they are merely reference points to get it further in balance.

Just the saying 'perceived acidity' implies so, and I've read that many times. Not by you? Sorrie!

Get on with this discussion in the pub ;)

I have missed all of this tread. My mother use do drink distilled water purchased at the pharmacy for medical reason The word distilled water is interesting. Why use distilled water to make wine or beer? Unless the distilled water is reconstituted its value is next to nothing. The distilled water sold in store is of unknown origin. So adding some chemical to it without knowing what in it at the first place is not a good practice. In recent market survey it was learned that bottle water is not controlled and may contain anything from treated municipal water to mineral water. Should the water supply be contaminated one will be better served by buying certified reconstituted water recommended by the local wine kit store or club.

You may view the entire thread by clicking:

To insure that there is nothing in the water that will contaminate or adversely affect the wine or beer, or adversely affect the fermentation process, or (in the case under discussion) that would throw off the accuracy of the acid test being performed.

What is the "reconstitution" of water, and how will this process increase the value of (what is by definition) pure water?

Not so. Every bottle (at least every bottle sold in this country) shows the place of manufacture.

place is not a good practice.

Distilled water, by legal definition, contains H20 and no other chemicals.

and may contain anything from treated municipal water to mineral water.

You are referring to a "survey" dealing with a completely different product, not "distilled water", but rather "purified" or "ionized" or "filtered" water, sold with the implicit or explicit claim that it is healthier than tap water. Some brands are little more than municipal tap water. Others are from mineral springs that have then been in a network of plumbing at the bottling plant, and thus are not much different than tap water. And others are decidely purer and free of contaminants and better tasting. None of them are distilled.

buying certified reconstituted water recommended by the local wine kit store or club.

I would be very surprised if any distilled water sold in the US, Canada, or the UK is contaminated. If it were, one would be better served by using ordinary tap water, especially if one first ran it through a Brita filter to remove the chlorine, flourine, and other undesireables that charcoal filtering can remove.

I can't imagine what "reconstituted water" might be. Reconstituted fruit juice is juice which was concentrated by removing a large portion of the water, and then later "reconstituted" by adding water in the original proportions. How that could be done with water, or why anyone would do so, is a mystery to me. I look forward to your explanation.

Thanks to put me on track. Something must be wrong because I can not access all the postings from my server (Sympatico).