Lodi Cab Sauv is pink???

I'm assuming these were whole grapes. How warm did your primary get and how long has it been going?

Ed

It was a bucket of fresh grape juice.

It probably didnt' get above 70F outside, before I brought it in, where it probably didn't top 68F.

hawk

The colour of the red grape is in the skin not the juice. You need to ferment on the skins to get anything besides rose colour. Yoou can make a lovely rose with your grape juice but you'll need do a fermentation on the skins to get a dark red colour.

It is possible to buy red grape colour from a compnay in California (R7000 I believe) and add tannin yourself to try and make a full red...

Fermenting on the skins is not the only way to extract color. This sounds like a processing error by the vendor. The color in pailed red juice is extracted by heating the grapes in the press, usually with steam. This ruptures the cell walls and extracts the color. (Fermenting on the skins is prefered but not absolutely required.) I have heard of people buying skins in wine shops, you could make a call.

Adding in a strongly colored wine like Alicante or Syrah will deepen the color, you may want to consider pulling a gallon off of the container and adding another red to it.

I have had pailed juice like yours in the past, but it is the rare exception. Mine was Merlot and I never made it again I was so mad. My brother makes it every year though.

I am not quibbling with JF, just pointing out a few additional details.

Hawk Have you taken your readings yet? I am curious since my cab sauv came in at a disappointing 21B 1.35% TA. I am considering adjusting the acid down to

Joe, I have seen many, many of your responses to questions. Your help and information has been invaluable. I never knew about the heating of the grapes for the color. Is that what gives the red wines from buckets that distinctive "cooked" taste?. Kind of like the Alexanders canned concentrates, but not as pronounced.

Maybe, but mine never have a cooked taste and I use a lot of pailed juice. The brand we are most familiar with is Regina. They claim to be 100% juice, no concentrate. Home Wines brand is made by California Concentrate, but I really can't say they have a cooked taste either. I have only used red juices from California. These red juice wines would never be called big, but they are grown in the central valley so it's what should be expected. Don't get me wrong, they are really well recieved. They are not substandard wines. I can get red grapes that are decent locally so my PA and NY reds were always from grapes.

It could be the concentrator, the old way was to heat and apply vacuum. Now I think most of it is done with vacuum and little if any heat.

I did use an Alexanders concentrate early on and did not care for it. It was cooked like you say. It was really cheap, I should have expected that. (It's sitting in a ton of oak among other things, maybe it will make decent sherry.)

Alexanders sells pailed juice too, but I have no experience with it.

Joe

Alexanders doesn't heat treat their red grapes and their juice normally is pink. At least not dark red. Reginas and Lucernes heat treats theirs. Tim

It (and the two whites) both hit about .990.

hawk

I used a lot of oak in both the primary and secondary. I was greeted with a lovely smell when I opened it.

Perhaps yet more oak for cask conditioning?

hawk

I'll check, but I'm pretty sure that neither of the locals (both are outlets for local wineries) have those.

Hm. But then I'm giving up a heavier red, too . . .

That's about my thinking here. It's obviously too early, but judging by taste and body so far, I did better with the brewking concentrates. Oh, and the Monidial (?) bucket of Merlot did quite nicely, and came dark.

I've seen references to kits that come with freeze-dried skins or some such, but I haven't seen any suppliers for those (at least not that mention them in the descriptions). Does anyone know where to find these?

hawk

I would do it now, before fermentation is complete... read up in archives about the procedure, and what to use.

I did Baco Noir last year and dropped the acid using Potassium Bicarbonate. I drew off a portion of the wine and completely de-acidified that, and added it back to the main batch. Do it in a container with lots of space, foaming can be quite vigorous.

cheers, charles

Mosti Mondiale, which looks like you already have some experience with, has "Sonoma Edition" kits in season that have grape skins and juice, they come as 23 (or 25?) L pails. I did 2 of these 2 years ago but wasn't impressed - it was a Cab and Zin and both came in with low pH (and I mean LOW - under 3.0!) and high acid (around 10 g/L).

Wineexpert just released a "Crushendo" kit - concetrate with grape skin pack.

I think CellarCraft has some too.

Possibly also Vineco - Kendall Ridge?

Pp

Thanks for the advise Charles! Unfortunately my local wine supply store doesn't carry Potassium Bicarbonate. He only believes in MLF and cold stabilization. Do you think I could use generic Potassium Bicarbonate?

Is it typical for juice/buckets to be of such poor quality? I have done several kits that turn out great, but most people I talk to have had trouble with juice. Some buckets already fermenting others with low brix and really high acid. I would like to try wine from juice, but what can I really expect from $35 buckets of juice?

I find the white juices to make OK wines but the reds leave something to be desired. I am sure if you spent the $80 for a Mosti Mondale red juice it would be fine. Don't expect much for $35.00. Is it typical for juice/buckets to be of such poor quality? I have done several

Well, you more often than not get what you pay for, so for $35 you can't expect much. It's a fallacy to assume that just because one doesn't need to add water to the pail, the result is automatically superior - I think some companies actually count on this miscperception to charge a premium for inferior product. It's the original juice quality that matters most - if you start with good juice, concentrate it into a kit and then later end water, you'll end up with a better wine than if you get a pail of inferior juice.

So if you want to work with juice, the best bet is to find a company that you trust and stick with them. But expect to pay a premium price for a premium product, that will never change.

Pp

No. It's atypical to have issues like this. It's always been worth $35 to $50, the price changes from year to year. The only way you will be able to determine this is by buying one and making it. If you like reds, try Regina Syrah. Whites, maybe Riesling.

I have made several thousand bottles of wine from juice, I doubt 25 were inferior. Everything changes from year to year, that's what makes it interesting.

I never really expect winemaking to be a mindless process, but I would never argue that great ingredients have the capablity of making a better end product that mediocre ingredients. I do not consider our wines made from juice mediocre.

Joe

In my limited experience with steam extracted reds, I produced decent table wine that had more body than any kit wine with a comprable price per bottle. I've never had any concerns with the whites available from my juice guys.

cheers, charles