pruning question

Jeff, this depends on a couple things. Think ahead to next year. If you think you will need these shoots to be spurs for next year - and or to replace some "antlers" that you currently have for spurs this year, then don't prune them. If they are not needed for future spurs and they are excessively shading your fruiting spurs then it would probably be a good idea to prune them providing you have sufficient follage for generating carbohydrates needed by the roots and vine.

Thanks for the reply. I've already isolated next years fruiting canes. The shoots I'm referring to are further along this years fruiting canes, and won't be needed next year. Even so, I'm leaning along the same lines as your comment about carbohydrate generation. They don't seem to be providing excessive shade for my fruit as yet (still early). Keeping them for that reason seems to out weight the nutrition they rob from my fruiting shoots. I suppose, if they provide more for the vine than what they take, they are worth keeping.

Regards Jeff

Jeff,

Here's my 2 cents. I assume from what you have already said that you cane prune. If that is correct and you already have shoots closer to the middle of the vine picked out for next year, if the unfruitful shoot is inbetween 2 fruitful shoots on the cane, I would take it off. There always SEEMS to be pleny of room eary in the growing season BUT once the laterals start growing it might get a little tight.

Bob

jeff wrote:

thanks bob, Yes, I cane prune. and my spacing is rather tight. that's why I'm toying with taking them off. on the other hand, Paul mentioned photosynthetic value, wich I also agree with. Thus, my little dilema. It's still early in the season, and I'm anticipating vigorous growth, based on what I'm already getting. I did some canopy management this aft. shoots will grow and accumulate leaves, but I'm reluctant to remove foliage that already exists.

Jeff

Remove them. You'll have PLENTY of foilage. Right now those shoots are a DRAIN on the plant as they grow. Come August you won't even remember they were there.

Bob

Jeff,

I might have been a little curt last post so I apologize in advance. It's up to you BUT I've found that when I'm that same sort of dilema the best course of action is to remove them especially if your canopy already looks tight. If the leaves of the non-fruitful shoots shade the fruitful ones they're a drag on the plant not a plus.

Bob

No need to apologize. Your point is well taken, and I'm rather relieved to hear the advice. I'm always concerned about photosynthesis. And while shading is not a problem yet, I can see tha it will be. It's still only May after all. Some of my leaves are full size. Shoots are 14 to 16 inches long already. It's rather prolific fot this time of year. So...off with their heads.

Thanks again.

Jeff

In my original response I assumed that he was cordon spur pruning but he indicated this is not the case and he is cane pruning. I do not use this system so I can not talk from experience but it SEEMS that:

IF, he has excessive vigor and IF the leaves will not shade fruit or nodes that will become shoots next year he may NEED a drain for the excessive vigor. The big word is "IF"

It seems to me that if he has very high vigor and IF he removes the non fruitful shoots, then the energy is going to go into providing more growth vigor for the existing shoots INSTEAD of putting that energy into the fruit.

Pruning the non fruitfull canes will not put the energy into the grapes if he has excessive vigor. It will go into producing more shoot length for the fruit bearing shoots and leaves. I have read that vines under stress, or simulated stress, will put the energy into seed (and thus the pulp around the seed, as a way to preserve the species) as opposed to trying to reach for the sunlight and climb.

I know this is a somewhat controversial subject and is very much dependent on area, definitions of excessive vigor, and other variables but I guess trial and experimentation for individual situations is the only real solution.

Paul,

It seems that I'm getting very valid points from both sides. Haven't pruned anything yet. I suppose in the end it's a judgement call. My vines are pretty close together, and eventually conjestion will be a concern. At the moment it's not a problem, but the season is young. I did pinch clusters already, however, to focus potassium and energy into remaining clusters.

I don't have a huge vineyard. It's easy to maintain. Therefore, the other option is to prune un fruiting shoots, and keep nipping off every new shoot that comes along throughout the season, forcing all energy into remaining shoots.

The question then is...will the energy go into fruit? or remaining shoot length?

I read, in General Viticulture, that for proper photosynthetic energy, one cluster needs on average, about 24 leaves. If I was to control shoots, yet retain the same number of leaves per cluster, perhaps that would help. Counting leaves in a vineyard, however, can be labour intensive, and impossible to keep up with.

Jeff

Jeff, where are you located? What are you growing? How long do your shoots normally grow during a normal growing season?

After a few seasons you too will be an "Expert" or at least have your own opinions.

Keep us informed of your discoveries and share any lessons learned.

Paul

Jeff, Im not sure what variety you are growing or where you're growing them, but if you don't have good internodal spacing then I would shoot thin. Shoot thinning, IMHO, opens up the canopy allowing more air flow and more sunlight into the developing basal buds where next years shoots will grow from. If your internodal spacings are close, then thinning shoots will help balance the canopy and give the vine a chance to have better spacing next season. If your spacings are good then I would imagine you have enough buds on the canes laid down that non fruiting shoots wont be a drain so much as a help when it comes to ripening the fruit. It would be interesting to know what crop weight you were aiming for as well. It has been my experience that this early in the season, or rather your season as I live in NZ, that the vines will have more than enough time and energy to put up more canopy if they feel the need.

In answer to both Paul and "Kiwizoom", I am growing cab franc in southern ontario, Canada. Franc usually grows pretty good around here. I'm an hours drive from niagara wine country. They make a good franc down there. One of their better red varietals.

This is the second year for fruiting vines for me. Because I have purposely limited my growing area to a small space, I am working with an unorthodox system of viticulture, using out-door hydrponics (don't laugh--it's working). Check out

for a visual of the vineyard. You'll see what I'm accomplishing in the space I'm dealing with. (or if you read WineMaker magazine, I think the latest issue has the article).

Needless to say, the principles of hydroponics change vine root development (but that's another thread).

While the vine roots tend to take on their own morphology, canopy management still holds to traditional pruning methods. However, because I've deliberately (emphasis on deliberately) restricted the space, I am being very judicious as to what growth is allowed to stay and what gets hacked off. Thus, my pruning questions.

My trellising methods employ a single upright fruiting cane growing lateral fruiting shoots. Internodal spacing is a bit close on some shoots. Yet on most shoots, is right on the money.

The vines are very healthy and at this point; a month ahead of traditional cab franc vineyards nearby (I drove down there and checked).

I've ordered several batches of cab franc grapes from Niagara, to compare taste and quality with my own harvest.

This should give you a better idea of what my pruning questions are about.

Jeff

Jeff, Wow, I am impressed. Now that I see your vineyard, I have no idea of what will work best. I think you are in the process of writing the textbook for this system yourself. Nice work and keep us informed.

Paul

Jeff et all

First point: This is one of the best discussions I have seen on this News group, vis-a-vis pruning, canes, spurs, growth etc. Second: I am glad to see that there are many who have questions related to vigor and growth this year, as we have been having amazing growth here on the Central Coast of California. We have the same questions. Interestingly, as we visit vineyards in the area, it seems that all theories of viticulture abound. Perhaps there are few "right" or "wrong" answers.

We have internodal distances of 6 and 8 inches on the new canes! (Spur distance is 4-5 inches) We barely finish pruning the 15th row, and it seems as if the 1st row needs attention again. Usually we keep our trunks clean of any kind of growth so that the energy is targeted at the new fruit and the leaves necessary to nourish them. This year we have left some trunk growth on the plants longer than in the past in an attempt to slow them down a bit, and do removing them, but not as diligently as we have in our previous 6 growing seasons.

It has been a very wet year here, and the soil is still damp a few inches below the surface. We have had to leaf and lateral thin twice already just to be able to see the fruit! Someone noted that taking off leaves and laterals now was not a problem as there would be plenty of growth to come. Absolutely our case and belief. While admittedly a bit lax on the trunks this year, we have been a bit more aggressive on the canopy side this year, as we see how fast the vines are growing. The fruit crop is more plentiful than normal, and at this point we are letting it grow to stress the plants a bit. We will drop some later.

In all, this has been a schizophrenic growing season for us thus far, and it has only just begun!

Regards

Jerry

Thanks Paul

I actually bit the bullet today and decided to do some pruning. Removed non-fruiting shoots, except for next years fruiting cane.

I think this way I'll be able to observe uninhibited growth on fruiting shoots and determine if a sink is necessary to slow things up, or what other adjustments to make nutritionally, etc.

I do appreciate your insigt thus far. You're right, I don't really have much of a reference to go by other than trial and error.

I will post updates as the season progresses.

Regards Jeff

Jerry,

Well I'm glad to see I'm not the only one with this pruning challenge. I feel I might be beginning to get a picture now, regarding what is generally allowed to remain and what is not. As you say, we are so early into the season, whatever is removed at this stage has several weeks to grow back in. All in all, I'm perceiving shoot removal is a judgement call, pertaining to varietal, location, training system and several other variables. I guess one has to simply get in sync with his own vines.

Our growing season here in southern ontario has also been schizophrenic. Lengthy amounts of sun and warmth, followed by a rain, followed by mixed sun and cloud, and the cycle starts over again.

I made a judgement call and pruned today, foreseeing the potential congestion of vegetation as the season gets into full swing. I've cleaned my trunks and the base of my canes as well, except for lower shoots I plan to grow into next years fruiting canes (I cane prune, to keep things simple for the time being).

Strangely, a few of my vines are not fruiting at all, for reasons I have not come to terms with yet. I have removed quite a bit of vegetation from them, save choice shoots for next year.

I'll wait and see what happens to the vineyard next, and make a decision based on how my vines react to what I did today.

All the best for your own vines, and growing season

Jeff

Hi Jeff Hydroponic viticulture....wow!! For some reason this concept has never occurred to me but what an interesting idea. Please keep letting us know how this goes please Jeff. From the photos it seems you're doing things pretty much as they should be, the vines look healthy. Last season I had areas of the vineyard I was managing that had more non fruiting shoots than other parts. After much discussion and observation we decided it may well have been that they were lacking some nutrients due to the soil type in that part of the vineyard. It seems to me though that being hydroponically grown all your vines would receive the same nutrients as the others, so perhaps for some reason they are a little more stressed? Just a thought. Are you keeping notes on what you are doing with the vines each time you work on them? also, if you're not sure which is the best way to treat them, then perhaps having a control group to compare with might be a good idea. Even treating one vine differently may be enough to do comparisons. My thoughts on your shoot thinning are that opening up the canopy is a good thing, especially if you have high humidty. It will help control and show any powdery or botrytis problems.

Jerry, Sounds like the season you are having is the season we've just finished here in New Zealand. It was probably one of the most unpredictable seasons we've every had. Taught us all a lot I think and made us think out of the square, just as you are doing ie not bud rubbing the trunks as often or as thoroughly as you may have other seasons. We shoot thinned and then had to come through and lateral thin several times on some of our blocks. We still had powdery mildew problems and now feel we should have been more agressive with the lateral thinning. Next year we intend to be but it will probably be a dry year with less growth, just because we are prepared for the opposite. This is a great discussion by the way. Always interesting to hear what other viticulturists are up to. :o)

I've been keeping detailed notes and daily records of weather, pH, growth rate, hours of sunshine, spray schedules, as well as regular dated photos of vine development. It's become an obsession.

Yes, I did thin a lot. Fact is, I didn't do a lot of winter/spring pruning, until I knew how my buds were going to behave.

I will keep the group posted.

Thanks for your input.

Jeff

Jeff,

How many canes are you allowing for each vine??? How much fruit will you leave on each plant??? BTW, obviously I think you made the right decision about the non-fruiting shoots. With a vertical fruiting cane, are you seeing 'even" growth from all your shoots on the cane???

Bob

Bob