The PA scale

Jun 13, 2004 47 Replies

Ok guys, here is my story. I did publish an article on alcohol determination in wine in April/May WineMaker Mag. It was based on tables and equations published by well known and respected authors in wine making. There was very little that was original in the article. What prompted the article was that I found that I could explain what appeared to be differences in the predictions by the different authors and could show that the apparently different tables were different realizations of the same relationship.

Fred has brought the basic assumptions of the artcle under question -- namely that the original authors knew what they were talking about. I will leave it to him to explain his objections.

I cannot defend the tables and data published by the original authors. I do not have thier original data. I can only say that my paper was based on well accepted, long standing publications and references were given. If Fred wishes to queston thier work I wish he would publish references where he shows that well respected authors counter the refferences I used or that he publish raw data that discredits the tables that were published by the original authors. If he cannot, the original authors work must stand as valid. Silence is not an arguement.

Yes there are numerous different published meathods of calculating alcohol level and some of them give very different results. I simply found that I could relate some of them to each other. I do not say that the calculation I suggest is better or worse than any of the others. I simply removed the discrpancy between some of them. When I can show that seveal seemingly differing meathods based on different assumptions are actually the same it gives me a sence of confidence; but, which you use is up to you.

Frankly, I believe that the only way to clear this up is to find original raw data that supports one meathod of the other. Lum has provided some data that does not support the equations I used. Pp has provided some that seems to support the data I used but are not ideal for the job. Pp also suggested some second hand data that suggests that the equations might be acceptable but this is not very valuable other than to point where I might find supporting evidence. Of course, it can simply be said that "no serious student of winemaking" would accept the data that supports the approach I used but I cannot fight that kind of arguement. If the data is measured and is there it can be accepted.

Sorry for the diatribe

Ray

Margalit, Concepts in Wine Chemistry, p. 57:

- 180g of sugar theoretically gives 92g of alcohol = 51% by weight

- sg of alcohol is 0.789 at 20C

- 51% (w)/0.789 = 65% (vol)

Margalit, who was already mentioned in this thread, has higher values. In Concepts of Wine Chemistry, p. 57 - maximum theoretical yield comes out as 65% by volume, average practical yield is estimated as 57% of B, with references to literature that report experimental data in the values of the actual measured yield of 55%-60% B.

Regards,

Pp

Hi Paul

I'm not a mathematician either, so I will let those guys answer that part of your post. Hydrometers and "standard" charts haven't changed in my (long) life time, so I will continue to believe that they are the best that "science" has been able to come up with (so far).

Here is how I would evaluate your wine:

Your ferment got stuck. You have about 2% residual sugar and your alcohol is about 12.4%abv. I would not trust this wine to remain stable in the bottle with this much remaining sugar in it.

I would taste it to confirm the presences of sugar and then test it with clinitest to try to determine how much. If more than 0.5%RS, I would stabilize by raising SO2 to not less than 0.83ppm molecular and add enough sorbate to insure stability.

OTOH - You might decide you want to force it to go dry. To do this with this much alcohol already present will be troublesome. Use a very high alcohol tolerant yeast such as P. Cuvee (PdM) etc, and a slow "doubling" procedure to let the yeast get used to the high alcohol content. HTH

Frederick

Hello Fred and thank you for the reply. Ray was the only one to reply who might help determine the error in my calculations. Hopefully I'll figure out what I did wrong.

Thanks also on the assessment of my wine. Although I'm happy to report that my wine most definitely isn't stuck. Clinitest shows it's bone dry, as do taste tests. Taste tests reveal a strong alcoholic snap, reminiscent of a Washington state wine called Duck Pond, which is about 14.5%. Dextrose additions raised Brix to 24 at start of fermentation, so those yeasties had a lot to feed upon! I'd be shocked if this were at the levels of my 2002 Seyval, which is at about 12.5%.

I used Enoferm CY-3079 yeast, which is good up to about 14% alcohol with decent temperature tolerance. Used Lallemand Go-Ferm nutrient through primary and Fermaid-K nutrient after an eight Brix drop. Also put it through ML fermentation using Enoferm Alpha (Oenococcus oeni). Chromatography tests show ML fermentation completed properly. It's in its eighth month storage on 10oz of Stavin medium+ oak and I have to say with pride, it tastes damn good!!! Creamy mouthfeel, slight hint of butter, nutty and complex character, and the oak has integrated well over the entire flavor profile. Can't wait to bottle the stuff and begin enjoying it, but that won't happen until January or February 2005. Gotta fine and cold stabilize first.

And I have to thank many of you in this newsgroup for coaching me through various questions and issues. Mostly our resident Chardonnay expert, Tom S.

Cheers All!

-Paul

Paul

Sorry. I would normally expect such a wine to have an end SG reading of 0.988 rather than 0.998.

Frederick

This is the v/v for pure sugar. PA is ABV in water/wine.

Hi Fred,

My feeling is alcohol levels reached upwards of 14%, which hindered further fermentation. Needless to say, the wine is fully dry and in great shape!

Thanks for your reply and all the best,

-Paul

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