Pubs on BBC2

A program produced with the aid of real ale drinking volunteers:-
BUSINESS AND FINANCE: Last Orders: Calling Time on Pubs?
Channel: BBC 2 North 2
Date: Friday 12th December 2008 Time: 19:00 to 19:30
Up and down the UK up to five pubs are closing every day, leading many to ask if the future of this British institution is in real jeopardy. The smoking ban, cheap supermarket booze, high rents and the credit crunch have all conspired to hit the pub business hard. The Money Programme's Max Flint goes on a pub crawl across Britain to investigate the demise of the British boozer.
Reply to
Paul
In message , Paul wrote > The >smoking ban, cheap supermarket booze,
The problem is not cheap supermarket booze, it's the high prices charged in pubs! If a pint of quality lager is on sale in supermarkets for 60p and £3+ in pubs then pub landlords must be making approx. 400% profit per pint.
The price in a supermarket includes high raw ingredient costs, high transport cost, high rents, staff costs and profits.
-- Alan news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com
--
Alan
news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com
Reply to
Alan
> In message , Paul > wrote >> The >> smoking ban, cheap supermarket booze, >=20 > The problem is not cheap supermarket booze, it's the high prices charge= d > in pubs! If a pint of quality lager is on sale in supermarkets for 60p= > and =A33+ in pubs then pub landlords must be making approx. 400% profit= > per pint. >=20 > The price in a supermarket includes high raw ingredient costs, high > transport cost, high rents, staff costs and profits.
OK I'll bite, troll.
By "quality lager" do you mean Fosters and the like? God help us. Supermarkets browbeat breweries (and others) into selling the stuff at markdown prices.
And you should do some research on such things as landlord rents, and what they have to pay pubcos for the beer. If they are making so much profit, why are so many throwing in the towel?
--=20 Brian
Reply to
BrianW
> And you should do some research on such things as landlord rents, and > what they have to pay pubcos for the beer. If they are making so much > profit, why are so many throwing in the towel? > > Exactly! And if, despite all the odds, they do make a success of the pub, the pubco will charge them more rent.
-- KeithS.
--
KeithS.
Reply to
KeithS
> In message , Paul > wrote > > The > >smoking ban, cheap supermarket booze, > The problem is not cheap supermarket booze, it's the high prices charged > in pubs! If a pint of quality lager is on sale in supermarkets for 60p > and £3+ in pubs then pub landlords must be making approx. 400% profit > per pint. That only applies if you assume breweries charge pubs the same as they charge supermarkets for their beer. In the real world, however, this is not the case. > The price in a supermarket includes high raw ingredient costs, high > transport cost, high rents, staff costs and profits.
And because supermarkets buy in quantities that would submerge the average pub (I mean literally here - if you emptied the quantities of beer ordered by one supermarket in one week into a pub it would fill the pub), then economies of scale apply here.
I once knew a pub owner who made most of his money buying beer from a certain brewery at his discounted price, and selling it to the local free trade at prices above what he paid - yet below what the local free trade could buy it at. Go figure, as the Yanks say.
-- Christine Pampling www.pandorasboxhealing.com
--
Christine Pampling
www.pandorasboxhealing.com
Reply to
Christine
In message , Christine wrote >> In message , Paul >> wrote >> > The >> >smoking ban, cheap supermarket booze, > >> The problem is not cheap supermarket booze, it's the high prices charged >> in pubs! If a pint of quality lager is on sale in supermarkets for 60p >> and £3+ in pubs then pub landlords must be making approx. 400% profit >> per pint. > >That only applies if you assume breweries charge pubs the same as they >charge supermarkets for their beer. In the real world, however, this is not >the case. > >> The price in a supermarket includes high raw ingredient costs, high >> transport cost, high rents, staff costs and profits. > >And because supermarkets buy in quantities that would submerge the average >pub (I mean literally here - if you emptied the quantities of beer ordered >by one supermarket in one week into a pub it would fill the pub), then >economies of scale apply here. > >I once knew a pub owner who made most of his money buying beer from a >certain brewery at his discounted price, and selling it to the local free >trade at prices above what he paid - yet below what the local free trade >could buy it at. Go figure, as the Yanks say. >
This only goes to prove that the trade is responsible for its own demise. Rather than publicans always complaining that the customers owe them a living perhaps they should get their own house in order first.
Not all pubs have a lack of custom. Perhaps some have gone down the road of serving beers that actually have some flavour rather something bland from one of the 'leading brands'. Perhaps some landlords have got off of their arses and done something about making their pubs more welcoming. If they haven't bothered then only selling alcohol at 3 or 4 times the price of the supermarkets isn't going to work.
There is a pub two minutes walk from my front door. How many times have I visited it? Answer: twice in 5 years. There is also a pub which requires a 20 minute walk and a £3 train or bus fare to get to. I have visit that establishment more than twice in 5 years!
The number of pubs closing in the good times was quite high so what chance is there in the bad times? I predict however that some of the landlords that made the effort to gain and retain custom in the good times will see rewards with customer loyalty. Pub going is often a habit and people go to the same pubs time and again. Break that habit by serving crap beer or cynically rising prices above the rate of inflation and customers will have a new habit of staying at home.
Last Christmas the trade announced that pub prices were going to be an average of £4 pint. How many customers who never normally go to pubs were tempted back as a result? I wonder if this year the trade will issue press statements with something positive to say about the reasons why people may want to actually go to their local pub?
-- Alan news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com
--
Alan
news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com
Reply to
Alan
It could be summed up in a bit of a pub crawl I did round Todmorden last night
5 pubs , one owned by a microbrewery (Copper Dragon) and 4 owned by various pub cos
Hardly anyone in the pubco pubs, the Copper Dragon one about 20 in. Better selection of beer, a caring landlord and a brewery that will allow genuine guest beers.
And the irony was that quite a lot of the customers in the Copper Dragon pub wern't actually drinking beer.
Anyway there's a couple of pubs in Todmorden up for grabs - Ossett where are you????
Reply to
Paul Rigg
> And the irony was that quite a lot of the customers in the Copper Dragon pub
There's a rumour going round that they are in trouble - I've heard it twice now, but it could be the same person saying it twice.
I can't find anything to collaborate the rumour, so it could be complete bollocks, but they have just spent a massive shed load.
Reply to
Gareth Babb
In article , Gareth Babb writes >There's a rumour going round that they are in trouble
Hope not. I do like their beers, Golden Pippin in particular, though the pint of IPA I had last night was seriously good.
Reply to
Mike Tomlinson
> In article , Gareth Babb > writes > > >There's a rumour going round that they are in trouble > > Hope not. =A0I do like their beers, Golden Pippin in particular, though > the pint of IPA I had last night was seriously good.
The MD was complaining that the benefits of moves meant to help smaller brewers such as SIBA's Direct DeliveryScheme & the govt's duty relief have both been curtailed as his company has grown - a victim of their own success. see full story -
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= code=3D61985
I've always liked all of Copper Dragon's beers, but I had a pint of Best in a CM Stockport pub - fresh, good condition, but very bland (so much so, I wondered was it mislabelled).
They always seem very quality driven & professional, plus unlike many brewery/pubcos are supposed to deal very fairly with their tenants.
To go back to the OP - yes poorly run, expensive pubs perhaps do deserve to go to the wall, & well-run, well-stocked pubs that offer good value deserve to survive, but as others have said the problem with many pubcos seems to be that that isn't enough for them - hence so many experienced & previously successful publicans getting out.
cheers MikeMcG
Reply to
MikeMcG
> Hope not. I do like their beers, Golden Pippin in particular, though Oh dear, I find Golden Pippin very insipid. I really don't understand what people see in it, and I know I'm not the only one. > the pint of IPA I had last night was seriously good.
Whereas Challenger is good.
Reply to
Gareth Babb
In article , Gareth Babb writes >Oh dear, I find Golden Pippin very insipid. I really don't understand what >people see in it, and I know I'm not the only one. Insipid is a bit unfair. It's a light beer, excellent for summer drinking and also a good session beer. If I'm just popping in for a quick one I choose something a bit heftier. >Whereas Challenger is good.
Certainly give it a try when I spot it.
Reply to
Mike Tomlinson
> >Oh dear, I find Golden Pippin very insipid. I really don't understand what >people see in it, and I know I'm not the only one.
It was originally brewed as an occasional beer but is now by far and away Copper Dragon's best seller. So obviously a lot of people see something in it that you don't!
Anyhow let's hope that Copper Dragon go from strength to strength. I've been on a couple of their brewery tours and am impressed by Steve Taylor's infectious enthusiasm and obvious love of his work.
Reply to
M Platting
> > >> >>Oh dear, I find Golden Pippin very insipid. I really don't understand what >>people see in it, and I know I'm not the only one. > > It was originally brewed as an occasional beer but is now by far and > away Copper Dragon's best seller. So obviously a lot of people see > something in it that you don't! > > Anyhow let's hope that Copper Dragon go from strength to strength. > I've been on a couple of their brewery tours and am impressed by Steve > Taylor's infectious enthusiasm and obvious love of his work.
Yes me too think its excellent. Off on a beery tour of Dewsbury and Huddersfield tomorrow. Hope I run into some though there are of course plenty of good alternatives round there.
Reply to
Paul Rigg
> > >"M Platting" wrote in message >news:iu15k4pl2j3d2mel7qi0qnhq9qehensac0@4ax.com... >> >> >>> >>>Oh dear, I find Golden Pippin very insipid. I really don't understand what >>>people see in it, and I know I'm not the only one. >> >> It was originally brewed as an occasional beer but is now by far and >> away Copper Dragon's best seller. So obviously a lot of people see >> something in it that you don't! >> >> Anyhow let's hope that Copper Dragon go from strength to strength. >> I've been on a couple of their brewery tours and am impressed by Steve >> Taylor's infectious enthusiasm and obvious love of his work. > >Yes me too think its excellent. Off on a beery tour of Dewsbury and >Huddersfield tomorrow. Hope I run into some though there are of course >plenty of good alternatives round there. Golden Pippin is a permanent fixture on the bar at the Cellar Bar in Batley. This seems to be because the ladies (well, one in particular) love it. Sodde's law that you're coming over this way, when I and some pals will be heading to your area for the same purpose! If you can arrange to be in the West Riding at 12.15, I 'll bring your 2009 CD JR along with me. >
Reply to
Mike Roebuck
> Yes me too think its excellent. Off on a beery tour of Dewsbury and > Huddersfield tomorrow. Hope I run into some though there are of course > plenty of good alternatives round there. >
formatting link
shows you what to expect in the Heavy Woollen district including Dewsbury; you should find Golden Pippin on at the Crackenedge.
Cheers,
Paul
Reply to
Paul
> one owned by a microbrewery (Copper Dragon)
I think this is a bit of an oxymoron!
CD are not a micro brewery!!
-- Chris de Cordova (West Cumbria & Western Lakes) www.westcumbriacamra.org.uk Whitehaven Beer Festival: 21st & 22nd Nov 2008 (www.whitehavenbeerfestival.co.uk) www.cumbrianbreweries.org.uk for good craic on our beers!
OK, so what's the speed of dark?
--
Chris de Cordova (West Cumbria & Western Lakes) www.westcumbriacamra.org.uk
Whitehaven Beer Festival: 21st & 22nd Nov 2008 (www.whitehavenbeerfestival.co.uk)
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Reply to
Chris de Cordova
> > > =A0one owned by a microbrewery (Copper Dragon) > > I think this is a bit of an oxymoron! > > CD are not a micro brewery!!
No maybe not anymore, though they started as a 10-barrel plant. But I'm a bit more philosophical about terms - I think they can now brew 480 firkins a day, so, no, they're not small, but they're not brewing beers like an ordinary regional (thank God).
We've had regional & super-regionals are they a super-micro? It seems lots of people object to terms like craft-brewed/brewery but maybe it helps to differentiate breweries of similar size but different ideas about quality, ingredients, flavour, etc? cheers MikeMcG.
Reply to
MikeMcG
In article > It seems lots of people object to terms like craft-brewed/brewery > but maybe it helps to differentiate breweries of similar size but > different ideas about quality, ingredients, flavour, etc?
I prefer a term like that!
-- Chris de Cordova (West Cumbria & Western Lakes) www.westcumbriacamra.org.uk Whitehaven Beer Festival: 21st & 22nd Nov 2008 (www.whitehavenbeerfestival.co.uk) www.cumbrianbreweries.org.uk for good craic on our beers!
I almost had a psychic boyfriend but he left me before we met.
--
Chris de Cordova (West Cumbria & Western Lakes) www.westcumbriacamra.org.uk
Whitehaven Beer Festival: 21st & 22nd Nov 2008 (www.whitehavenbeerfestival.co.uk)
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Reply to
Chris de Cordova
> It could be summed up in a bit of a pub crawl I did round Todmorden last > night > > 5 pubs , one owned by a microbrewery (Copper Dragon)
Was that the Masons - or does CD have more than one pub in Tod now?
Reply to
gavin

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