Chianti?

Who would buy 'Rufina'? It's hard enough, friends!

What is called 'Chianti' may differ from the historical district of that name, but that does not falsify what I said.

There is a wine production area called 'Chianti', and wine made in that area is called 'Chianti'. Wines made from subzones of 'Chianti' are called "Chianti Classico", "Chianti Rufina", etc.

By "delimited Chianti region" I am indeed referring to DOC(G) regulations.

The few Rufina's I've had mostly from Frescobaldi; Nippozano bottling are equal to the best classic's and better than the run of the mill, tricked up wines sent to the US. Frescobaldi has national distribution. I know their importer, Anthony Terlato's Paterno pays a lot of attention to these wines. Don't let Tony Terlato know you think poorly about that part of his portfolio. I can't understand your problem with wines from chianti rufina but I'm sure Mr.Terlato's compliance people would correct you if it affected sales in Columbus, Ohio. Hiring a bodyguard may work for you.

So, what? Is it not that good wine? If Chianti can sell, why cannot Rufina, if it is even better than Chianti? Si licet italice loqui: e 'sti cazzi?

Yes it does indeed: either you mean a wine branded "Chianti", or you mean a region/area. The latter has got at least 5 (five) centuries of well defined political and social common history.

Ohh, really? And give a look at my sentence above: wines merely labelled Chianti (or even Chianti Classico, for that) DO NOT come from within the "Chianti region", but from within the production area whose borders are established by law. Which is pretty tautologic, I believe (i.e. S/N ration absolutely vanishing).

Then please, call it "production area", if you do not mind. The Chianti _region_ has never ceased to exist, and it is a different thing altogether despite the visibility and power of the winemaking Tuscan lobby.

Although you are replying to UC, I believe this part of your post may be of some relevance to me as well (and may I add I am not surprised at all to hear the news, after the recent "capeesh" marketing campaign of the producer you name): do you think that Tony Terlato could be annoyed by _my_ problem with wines produced well outside of the Chianti district and named Chianti-something, since he is paying so much attention to these wines? Do you think that hiring a team of bodyguards (or even a private army) could be enough for me to escape such a wrath of god, no matter where I would be hiding?

Terlato started Paterno after World War 2--He I believe is Sicilian. Right now he has Pio Cesare, Ratti, Frescobaldi and Santa Margherita +++++????? They also own a distributorship in bucolic Chicago. At one time they imported Corvo from Sicily. Back in those days every Italian restaurant in the North East had only one wine from Sicily and that was Corvo.

When I was in retail sales, our Paterno salesman promised the store, current vintages of Ratti & Pio Cesare if we loaded up on Corvo. (Paterno's wholesaler in Maryland was several vintages behind what was available in New York, Boston & Chicago).

The Paterno salesman was required to be at a wedding of someone in the Paterno famiglia. After he gave the bride a gift of money, his supervisor informed him that he did not meet his Corvo quota and annoyed Mr. T because he diverted wine to Maryland. He was dismissed on the spot in front of his wife and asked to leave.

Around that time (1985) I went to Italy for 30 days, I was told by the wholesaler to contact the regional VP to arrange visits. The Regional VP had the store I worked in purchases for the three years I was their part time wine guy. He set us up at Ratti, Pio Cesare and Lungarotti in Umbria. Me & my friend Jim M. were set up with many wineries. In Piemonte we stayed at a company guest house and had a meal with the owner, Bruno Cerretto who drove us around. When we got to Ratti, Sig Ratti asked to see our program(appointments) and asked us back for a meal. The same thing happened at Pio Cesare, Sig Boffa told me that Paterno told him to treat us as average tourists and by no means feed us or open anything rare. He grabbed a box of his wines & took us to lunch. Same thing happened at Frescobaldi. At Lungarotti no one heard of us and we stayed at their hotel and dined in their restaurant.

When I got into the wholesale end of the business, I was agent for M.DeGrazia and other wineries from Northern Italy. I visited the top 20 stores in Maryland at least monthly, and in several stores I had about 1/3 of the fine Italian wines displayed. (I was lousy in restaurants). I called on one store where there was a queque. Ahead of me was the Paterno rep & his boss. We got to talking and the Paterno exec asked me to show him my wines on the store's shelf. I did and my company had about 16 facings to Paterno's 4. Just then the owner came out and asked to see me with my samples--I pointed out that the Paterno crew was ahead of me, but he said I'll talk to them later. IIRC they reordered some Italian wines and German wines and placed an order for two wines they sampled a few days before. According the young Paterno guy, his boss was very agitated about what I was doing to his brands and conveyed that emotion to the stores owner. When the Paterno crew left and went to other stores, the Paterno exec saw the same ratio between DeGrazia and Winemayven(thats me) wines and Paterno. By the end of the day, the poor salesman was let go. I apologized to the kid for contributing to his firing and he told me how fanatical Paterno was.

This last tale is a legend. A well connected wholesaler was trying to increase sales in a popular discount specialist in New York city. The padrone of the wholesaler took the store's owner for a ride around Manhatten and when the store owner agreed to carry the wholesalors wine at full mark-up---he was dropped off. A friend of mine used to visit the store frequently and noted the NY wholesaler's wines & Paterno's never had the store's usual deep discounts.

Customer retribution has gone the way of the blimp, but Gallo & Paterno make carrying their wine, the "smart thing" to do. I'd protect your knees in any case.

This is "Chianto Classico", not "Chianti".

Furthermore, according to my map, the village of Greve itself is situated right in Chianti Classico, so it cannot be an "ultra-tiny" fraction of this commune.

M.

Sorry for the delay.

Not so. As long as we are talking about a "region" and not a wine (hence not about a production area either), there is but ONE Chianti. The production area of the wine labeled "Chianti Classico" was created in 1932 by adding to the Chianti district the whole part now constituting the northern half of the production area itself. That has very little (if anything at all) to do with the Chianti region.

Again: you are talking about the production area whose borders were established by law in 1932., i.e. not about a "region". What I am saying is that the only part of the contemporary local community of Greve which used to be part of the "Lega di Chianti" is the one of Panzano. That part IS an ultra-tiny portion of the whole comune di Greve. By the way: only in 1972 Greve was allowed (by act of the regional government) to add the "in Chianti" after the name. And it must be said: after three unsuccessful attempts over the preceding decades, and against the advice of the three historical Chianti communities of Castellina, Gaiole and Radda, strongly adversing Greve's claims.

Interestingly enough, one of these failed attempts, in 1963, was brought forward by Greve only for the S.Polo village (always known as S.Polo ad Ema), and not for the major town of Greve itself, with a very peculiar motivation indeed: that way they could solve the ambiguity with an other Italian small town, S. Polo d'Enza (which I think is near Parma) causing "sooo many" troubles with postal deliveries. Got the picture of the "strong historical reasons" behind that extension?

Thank you for your excellent remarks. Sorry, however, for having taken Chianti as a wine growing region - in a group called alt.food.WINE ... ;-)

M.

;-)) No problem, Michael. As I am trying to say, this point is a tough one: for decades (if not for centuries) the name of a region has been used to boost the sales of wines produced even well outside of that region. Usually, with the justification that such a wine was very similar in character to the one traditionally produced within that region. Now, after so many changes of style and character of that wine, now that even the "disciplinare" has eventually dropped the peculiar "traditional" formula devised in the 19th century by Bettino Ricasoli, and you can have a Chianti 100% sangiovese, or one with substantial amounts of Cabernet Sauvignon/Merlot/Sirah added, now that (spelled in plain words) it is clear to everybody that the only possible meaningful definition of "Chianti wine" is that of "wine produced in the Chianti district"... what are we seeing now? We all can see that it is the fortunes of this Chianti wine (Classico or whatever, both are produced even outside of the Chianti area) that start dictating the destiny of the Chianti region, thus endorsing (in the customers' and tourists' minds) an entirely invented territory (or rather: entirely misplaced, coincident with the production area of CC) as being "the real thing". But we will NEVER surrender our name and history. Ok, 'nuff said. Thanks for listening.

You're welcome! Excellent read, btw.

M.

Thanks for appreciating. Really matters to me.

Excuse me, but the brand name 'Chianti' for wine is an entirely independent and useful denomination. Whether the boundaries within which Chianti wine may be made correlate precisely to the traditional region named 'Chianti' is of no significance whatsoever. If I try a wine labelled just 'Chianti' (not 'Classico' or 'Rufina') and that sells for $10, I should not expect a miracle-wine in any case. I don't see your point at all. Brand names are brand names an nothing else. Deal with it.

Lascia perdere Filippo, no farti imbarcare...

UGH

Stai fresco che lasci perdere... tutto esercizio di diteggiatura. >:-E]

I would not say it is an "entirely independent" denomination. Just give a glance at the website of Consorzio del vino Chianti Classico and you will see. About it being useful...ROTFL!! "Thanks" to this "useful" denomination, an all encompassing container for central hilly Tuscany red wines, Chianti wine swings from one style to another, from one grapes recipe to another, from a price segment to a wildly different one. Many out of the best wines from that district choose to label as "vino da tavola" or as IGT.. This spells no great success in terms of brand philosophy. Now it is a relatively good moment, for it is fashionable again. And how about tomorrow?

Maybe to you. So? Hopefully people are more receptive than you are, when something like the collective name of a territory, of a people, is involved. If you like to be fooled into thinking that the red wine you drink as Chianti (and that you pay for accordingly) "is" Chianti, no matter if it comes from the Chianti region or not...be my guest ;-)

Who speaks about brand names? I am talking about a geographical name. By the way, the new European regulation about the use of geographical names in labeling products is pretty clear. You may not know it, but I think this would be a problem of yours. You will have to deal (and pretty soon, I guess) with different sub-brands emerging from the ones you are used to. If you want to be going to have a clue whatsoever about that, when it will happen, you had better be less superficial about the knowledge of territorial identities.

You have no idea at all how people buy wine. Most people can remember only a badly mutiltaed handful of product names for any given product type.

Quick: how many shampoos can you name? How many brands of soap? How many brands of olive oil?

Have you ever actually dealt with the public? I bet you have not. I was in a wine shop the other night, and a woman came in and asked the clerks for a "$10 Chianti". I grabbed a bottle of Monte Antico and handed it to her, and the clerks just smiled. Now, is Monte Antico 'Chianti"? Not technically, but it is close enough for her purposes.

I never said that 'Chianti' should represent great wine, but it is easy to remember and that is why it is useful. Those who would be willing to seek out better and luxury wines will obviously be willing to invest the time to learn other names (Classico, Riserva, Rufina, Morrelino, etc.). But for 98% of the people who buy wine, and who also hardly ever spend more than $15, 'Chianti' is perfectly useful as a name. It's useful to the consumer, not to the producer.

NOW, do you understand why the relationship to the historical area is of no great importance? is "Irish Spring" soap made in Dublin? No. Who gives a s*it?

And you seem to have no idea at all about how many other "products and services" get sold, along with the most prominent ones, linked by a name, be it a brand or not. I am talking to less forgetful people than those unable to retain but "a badly mutilated handful of product names for a given product type".

I can name the one I chose to use. And I did not choose it by the name.

I make my own soap.

I make my own oil.

Anyway, I am not talking about individual brands, mind you. And only partially about wine. There are other values as well, besides wine. I am confident that this very bit of information has got fairly good chances of creeping even in the most enthusiastic of the wine consumers' mind.

Fine. Maybe that lady would never find herself in San Casciano Val di Pesa (FI) wondering if the surrounding area "is" Chianti or not. But lots of other people would. To them knowing which is the real Chianti area and which is not, would matter. For sure it WOULD to the Chianti people. I bet that, had this discussion concerned a geographical area like "Champagne", or "Napa", or Cote d'Or, then now we would be watching scores of solicitors slamming their folders on top of a judge's desk, not skeptical shallow drinkers wondering what the hell this Chianti guy is ranting about....

Hope you do not mind if I am not taking as a reference standard the needs of "customers" unwilling (or rather: "refusing") to deepen a bit their knowledge of what they buy.

Is Champagne made in Champagne or not? Is Irish whiskey made in Ireland or not? Is any Napa branded wine made in Napa or not? Is Tennessee whiskey made in Tennessee or not? Is Scotch whisky made in Scotland or not? Do you really think that the relationship to the geographical area is of no great importance? If you really think so, then excuse me but it is now my turn not to give a s*it about your advice.