Gormet Magazine - Article on Glassware

This is basically what I meant when I said that there are glasses that work and those that don't.

Cheers, Dana

Steve Slatcher wrote:

Hi Steve That is of course if you consider Riedel an upgrade. I attended a Riedel wine dinner some years back (around 97 I think) where you got to keep the glasses after the function. I had been given a table to host for 4 and so ended up with all 16 glasses. 4 each of (all Vinum) Champagne, White Burgundy, Bordeaux & Burgundy. I had never given much thought to the glass I used to that point, so long as it was clean, large enough to swirl & not too thick (as I hate the intrusive feeling on my lips) I didn't care what it was. The Riedel rep had crapped on a bit at the dinner about what a difference the glass made, all the tongue map mumbo jumbo etc. I was a bit bored and really not too interested I was there for the food (3 hat restaurant) and wine (Dom P to start then Rosemount Estate Top end & back vintages). I was happy however to take home some nice glasses. I conducted my own experiments with these glasses and the ones I had at home and I was pleasantly surprised to find that I did indeed prefer the nose of the Riedel's. It wasn't a huge difference mind, subtle notes of the wine were more evident, (though after finding them in the Riedel I could then detect them in the old glasses as well (power of suggestion??)) it seemed more perfumed and there was more concentrated fruit sweetness. On the palate I could detect no difference whatsoever. These glasses slowly died a natural death, some jumped and some were pushed (my dad broke 4 in one go after christmas lunch one year) and it eventually got to the point where I was drinking out of the last few remaining Riedels and everybody else got the old stock (of which there were plenty as I had picked them up from a hotel restaurant I had worked at that had been "realigned"). At that point I decided to go shopping for some more Riedels (which we were now also using in the restaurant) Well at $35 - 40 a stem retail and around $22 wholesale they were out of my league financially. I then stumbled across some German glasses on sale at Myers (large Oz department store) Esse design at $30 for

1. I bought a box each of the Chardonnay, Cabernet & Flutes and took them home for some comparison with the surviving Riedels. These glasses were just about indistinguishable from the Riedels on inspection, I then did a tasting with the Esse, Riedels & old stock glasses, I was unable to detect any difference between the Riedel and the Esse. So off I went back to Myers and I now have around 60 of these glassessplit amongst the three types mentioned. My budget doesn't allow me to spend as I would like, if I had unlimited funds I would buy plenty of nice Riedel glasses, I can however get something very similar for much less cost and then I can spend the difference on wine :) Cheers Andrew

This has been my experience with the little bit of experimentation I've done at home myself. A glass can have a great deal of influence on how well the nose of the wine presents itself, but they don't seem to make a difference on the palate (as long as the rim is not beaded, IMHO). In particular, there's a bit of research which suggests that taste receptors are randomly distributed on the tongue, so even if glasses did "direct the flow" of the wine, it isn't likely to make a difference.

Dana

A very interesting discussion of the Gourmet magazine article is at:

They give the exact reference to the article. The tests mentioned in the Gourmet article were paid for by Riedel and done by Thomas Hummel, a very famous physician and scientist at Dresden. In one of the threads, just look up the link to Hummel and his qualifications. I doubt if Riedel is using the results of Hummel's study in their sales pitches, and I very much doubt if they will pay Hummel for another study.

My mailbox is always full to avoid spam. To contact me, erase snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net from my email address. Then add snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com . I do not check this box every day, so post if you need a quick response.

Salut/Hi Leo Bueno,

le/on Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:56:33 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

Sorry. Sure.

As you may know, Riedel makes glasses in several ranges, of varying sizes. I had bought a bottle of wine (cab sauv) from the Hotel to take there. As someone who was deeply cycnical about their claims, I decided first of all to test whether I could detect a difference in taste/smell between their "top" glasses one of which was designed for that style of wine and another which wasn't. So I chose (whatever they called them) two glasses from their Sommelier range, one was for top Bordeaux wines the other for top Burgundies. We poured two samples (one for each of us) into the four glasses at the same time and then smelled and tasted to see if we could detect any differences. We could. We both felt the bordeaux shape showed the wine better - the wine seemed more in balance, in some way. I was very suprised at the extent of the differences between the way the wine showed in the two glasses.

OK. With that test out of the way, we then got the staff to put out two of each of the lesser ranges - vinum and whatever the others were called, and we first combined the remaining wine from the two Sommelier burgundy glasses into the two Sommelier "bordeaux" and then tipped from those out into each of the smaller glasses, so that the wine in each glass was identical.

We then tasted each glass in turn. This time, the wine showed more or less (very closely) the same sort of balance and flavour profile, but as we descended the ranges, we found we could detect less on the nose. They showed less of the faults, but also less of the good points. So one the basis of that, we concluded that the Sommelier glasses were the best analytical tools, and probably the best for drinking wines with few faults! Since I already have glasses more or less of the size and shape of the lesser ranges, I didn't feel the need to buy any. I did, however, buy two each of the seconds on both burgundy and bordeaux sommelier ranges and four seconds in their Sommelier sauternes shape.

Since then I've done a number of tests, with friends, semi blind, not telling them which stem was which but getting them to taste bordeaux or burgundies out of both shaped glasses and asking a) if they could tell a difference and b) which they preferred. Not _everyone_ preferred the "right" glasses, but I think everyone could tell a difference when comparing.

Note that I'm not making any claims about whether Riedel glasses are better than any other makes, or that they improve the wine drunk from them. I DO say, however, that I have no doubt whatsoever that the different shaped glasses do influence my perception of the wine.

No, because I took some pains to ensure that any temperature effects were - if not eliminated - at least minimised.

That's what they were claiming at the factory. I thought it was suspect, although _something_ affected my perception. I assumed at the time that it was the shape, and while I remain sceptic about the reasoning, I can't argue with my perception of the effect.

Agreed. I also reject the claims that I've seen, that they have a special micro-crystalline surface structure which causes them to show the wine better. The wines are hand blown crystal glass, which as such is a glass, (speaking technically) and that therefore HAS no crystalline structure, micro or other. A glass is very similar to a liquid, structurally, and the molecules within it have no form or symmetry. Effectively, the surface of a glass is even, without any micro structure. I was interested to see the blowing process (I have done laboratory glass blowing, so I have some idea about the process) because there was no special treatment that I could see, to alter the natural surface.

Salut/Hi Cwdjrx _,

le/on Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:02:53 -0600, tu disais/you said:-

I share your scepticism at this.

Agreed, up to the point where, like it or not, I DID find a difference in wine drunk from the different glasses and I DID find a difference in the analytical ability of the different size glasses.

Frankly, I'd not do either. I use them either analytically (as explained elsewhere - for wine tasting) OR for my very top wines, to let them show off at their best.

I have to agree. "Horses for courses". I use my standard INAO tasting glasses for most of my wines. When serving a decent wine for a dinner party, I use my Berry Bros glasses. My Riedels are reserved for specific circumstances.

Heh. Sounds like raging agreement for the most part.

Of course, none of this addresses the truly significant difference in the nose that I observed with the Eisch glasses last week... same shape, but one glass really did bring out the nose much more than the other.

Cheers, Dana

Dana, Is it possible that the Eisch glass was warmer than the other? That could certainly account for a more intense nose.

Just a thought, Mark Lipton

Quite apparently it was in the precursor thread.

M.

Actually, there were two Eisch glasses, identical in appearance. One had been treated, the other not. They were sitting on a table close to each other, and the wine was poured from the same bottle into each glass sequentially. The glasses were not at different temperatures that I could tell.

I certainly did not expect what I found.

Dana

Which one was that?

That makes absolute sense.

What I find unbelievable is that a Chianti, for example, is so similar to other Chiantis in term of aromatics, and so different to wine from anywhere else, that it makes sense to have a Chianti glass.

That makes sense too.

From an aesthetic view I would agree 100% an unbeaded rim is nicer. But do you really mean it affects the palate? I suppose, short of anaesthetising a taster's lips, that is pretty impossible to test blind!

Heh, I knew I'd get a reaction from this. I can't taste the bead, and it doesn't change the wine, but something about the tactile sensation of a beaded rim just takes the whole experience down a notch ;-)

It's purely subjective for me...

Cheers, Dana

Then we agree on that too :-)

Sorry, after 20 minutes of intense google.groups searching I don't semm to be able to find the posting.

But I remember that the poster said that he had held Riedel glass tastings and also informal tastings, where clients where just offered the same wine in 3, 4 or 5 glasses (without them being told which was which) und were asked to whether they would perceive a difference, and, if yes, which wine glass they preferred. The poster said that almost invariably the clients chose the "right" glass from the respective Riedel range.

M.

Thank you. I shall watch out for future evidence.

Steve,

That part of the discussion was posted by CabFan (Gary) and follows:

"Let me first state that I sell wine retail, along with Riedel and Spiegelau crystal. That being said....

While I agree that there is a good bit of "play" in the marketing aspect of both companies (especially if you look at the 30+ different Vinum series Riedel stems), I have yet to see anyone ever NOT prefer the Riedel stem for a particular wine when compared to any other. For example, pour a taste of a cabernet (or cabernet based wine) into your current favorite glass, a Riedel Vinum Bordeaux stem and a Riedel Vinum Pinot Noir (or any other Vinum series stem that you care to try --- I recommend the Pinot because they are similarly sized) glass. Try each one and think about the wine and how you experience it. The other requirement is that you pour the same wine, from the same bottle, in all three (or how many ever) glasses so you truely see the difference.

We contact a regular Riedel seminar in which there are 5 wines tasted: a sparkling, a Sauvignon Blanc, a Chardonnay, a Pinot Noir and a Cabernet. I have personally conducted more than 20 of these seminars (average 18-20 people) over the past 3 years and ever single person has always preferred the correct Riedel stem for a given wine.

I have also simply poured people wine in a couple of different stems and asked them if they preferred the particular wine from any particular glass. Many times, the people had never heard of Riedel (or Spiegelau) and yet they too have always said they preferred it from the correct stem.

Now the other side of this coin is that I too was very skeptical when I first heard this and so I can understand where you are coming from. And I still don't know that I find very much, if any variation in a lot of the stems (again, there's 30+ Vinum series and many of these are very close to each other in size, shape, etc.). For everyday drinking, we use the following stems (all from the Vinum series): Sparkling/Champagne, Sauvignon Blanc, Chardonnay, Bordeaux/Cabernet/Merlot and Burgundy/Pinot Noir. We also use the Zinfandel/Chianti stem when we travel or go out.

And yes, I am partial to Riedel over Spiegelau simply because that was the first ones that I used. I believe you can use either with the same results equally well.

The final, bottom line (in my opinion) is that you really should just enjoy your wine, along with some good food and friends, in whatever particular stemware you happen to prefer. That's why it's made.

Cheers, Gary"

Hope that this helps, Hunt

So that is (5 wines) x (say 25 seiminars) x (20 people) = 2500 tests. And in every one of those 2500 cases the correct Riedel stem is preferred.

That is still a pretty amazing statistic! Even Whiskas (a cat food) commericals only claim a 90% preference rate :-)

Actually, the sparkling is not tasted against other stemware. The other clarification would be that we do get repeat class takers, since it's a great way to build a collection (you keep the glasses after the tasting). However, the fact still stands that I've yet to witness someone who didn't prefer the "correct" stem.

The other argument here would probably be that since this is a Riedel tasting, that there is some pre-disposition built into the glass. I think that at the next one, I will throw in some different things to see what the results are (for instance, I may throw in some Spiegelau and/or different Riedel stems). Our next event is in March, so I will post the results then.

Cheers, Gary