Modified Davis 20 point system

gerald wrote in news:ebv212dbetm6b8bnif8bj2ttbc9vv966h4 @4ax.com:

That scale is just nonsense to me, mind you. It is absurdidly short on the nose character.Only 4 points over 20. The sweetness issue is nonsense. For a wine to be balanced you need the wine to counterbalance the acidity with either residual sugar or alcohol (which tastes sweet). Why is acidity more important than sweetness? It all has to be in balance.

Besides, what is the appropiate color for a red burgundy? Do we favor dark wines in a modern style (think of a Gevrey-Chambertin by Alain Burguet) or the lightly extracted wines of, say, de Montille?. Both are great wines, and both could have the same rating providing they are in balance and provide the same pleasure.

I really prefer DES (Dale's Easy Scale) to a quantitative approach, even if I understand that points-drinkers need a ninety-something tag in the bottle they are drinking to feel confident.

S.

Santiago,

While I agree with your sentiments towards points, the UC Davis scale is really designed to rate a wine within it's style and varietal. It supposed to weed out flawed wines rather than determine if Ch. Lafite is better than Ch. Latour.

In your example on red Burgundy, both should score the same (or very close) using this scale.

Andy

"gerald" in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

"For a rating system." (Among others?)

I gather that you understand the history connected here?

That this was the original "high-resolution" rating system in the US and pushed for a decade or two, and did _not_ catch on?

That it was the reason many people, journalists, consumers, books, concluded (by around 1980) that "numerical" scoring had been shown to lack support in the US?

That a later, even higher-resolution, "numerical" rating system did, despite all this history, catch on, with a new bunch of wine consumers?

That this is among the many implicit ironies and conflicts in the modern history of US wine markets?

All numerical systems are totally absurd.

Yes, absurd in the way that scoring figure skating is absurd. It helps select a winner and give the act a semblance of objectivity.

A VERY rough scoring system such as that used by Gambero Rosso is OK (two glasses, three glasses, etc.).

But 89 points vs 91? That's ridiculous.

That's why I like reading Dale.

Myron

skrev i melding news: snipped-for-privacy@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

For once I agree with you..., at least partly. Professional tasters are supposed to be objective, but we all know they judge the same wines differently, of course. So, publishing scores from, say, 5 or 10 tasters as an average and claiming the 91 point wine is 'better' than the 89 point one is meaningless. But, if you know a taster with the same preferences as yourself you may indeed feel confident that the differences he finds are real - to your taste. And yes, the difference between wines of the same area and type what counts. Standards seem to vary between countries - I've a feeling that Germans regularly award less points, than Austrians do (Do we get an opinion from Michael, our resident professional? :-)

Btw, the 100 point scale, really is only 20 points - or when do you see or buy anything below 80? Pure water gets 50, you know.

Anders

" when do you see or buy anything below 80?"

2001 Havens Bourriquot, WS (Laube) 67, one of my rare case buys. :)

"Joe "Beppe"Rosenberg" in news: snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com:

That's strong criticism Joe, though I'm in no position to judge because I see the Spectator very occasionally. What's ironic is with the demise of Vintage in 1983 --popular independent US wine magazine from the 1970s, I saw it on east and west coasts, it used various writers and took contributed articles but never, on principle, advertising -- after it folded, many of those writers appeared in the _Wine Spectator_ with its very different policies. (Steiman was familiar as a local wine journalist in San Francisco newspapers.)

I have heard this from many people of diverse perspectives. And though I didn't take his publication, I came to respect Parker in particular after figuring out that certain behaviors reflected not him, but zealous fans. The more independent critics the better. I've read those others off and on; Meadows (not mentioned) I've read and actually tasted with, he seems good as a US Burgundy specialist respected among US Burgundy fans I hear from.

(Again strong stuff.) To the first part, a specific that surfaced when Parker was discussed here (or rather its differently-named original newsgroup) in the1980s, before Parker himself was online at the private Prodigy subscription service* (discussions remarkably civil and constructive by current standards, BTW) was instances cited where Parker allegedly identified the same wine with what he would call significant point-rating disparities when trying it in different circumstances. That information is one of those things that the zealous fans, especially later ones, apparently were unaware of (and, being unaware of it, like to deny).

-- Max

• One of the several large private services that set up independent email and news services in competition with the actual Internet (that's us), but eventually merged into it starting in the middle 1990s. Posted details earlier.

Most of what I wrote was informed hearsay---I did broker a wine the received

89 points and took out a nice sized ad---I was a sub-contractor- the main broker told me, he spoke to some one at the WS because in several markets like mine orders were cancelled because retail was $45 and it only got an "89" score plus a nice sidebar. The WS guy allegedly said that a bigger ad would get another point tacked on but was said in a joking manner. BTW the wholesaler I sold it too has to reduce Wholesale pricing by 40% to move it out. They must have gone thru a case sampling the trade after the "bad" review.

I do remember Vintage a quirky publication--I heard the publisher is still producing magazine promoting "T & A".....Everything I've heard about Meadows is good---You are "spot on" about how consumers & merchants frenzy over points, not his reviews are objectionable. I sold a Barolo from Annunciata in La Morra that was rated 89+ by Parker & presold about half a palate---when the wine arrived I got any angry call from a merchant seems hos customer found the wine too "soft". The text in Parker's review which neither the merchant or customer read mentioned the wines elegance and balance.

At times I did use raw scores to sell, mostly allocated wines from DeGrazia, some merchants hadn't gotten the WA yet--I'm still first class mail--so I went over the scores with my group of DeGrazia players, who ordered the wines before Mr. Bob's first reviews. My POS always highlighted the text & score even for WA purposes.

I met Steiman twice--once at the first or second Napa Wine Auction-he was sitting in the sake row & I got up & introduced my self. I mentioned I taught wine classes and was part of Parkers "control group" big boo-boo-- he said he was to busy to chat--O saw him at a Hublein auction event and pointed him our to Parker. I was walking to shake his hand when he turned his back on me, which was not as rude as James Sucking was when Angelo Gaja introduced me at VinItaly---he held out his left hand and started a conversation with someone else. I met Tom Mathews a few times and he's a real person.

I have to admire Shanken, when he bought the WS it was pretty lame-Besides Parker the Conn. Guide & San Diego Grapevine were darlings of my fellow wine geeks--Finnegan newsletter was very well written but was not comprehensive--- Jerry Meads huzzahs & rants were very entertaining. After

9-11 Shankin stepped up to the plate and gave not only money but supported the efforts to lift up the beverage & food communities in New York--so I forgive him his celebrity reviews of Hal Prince & Mel Brooks ( I had thought Brooks was a Dr Brown & Selzer guy--who knew he loved Bordeaux)

Often times the WS gives an honest score but a "national" brand gets the most play in best 100 lists & best buys etc---One year they gave Pertimali Brunello 93 points & Banfi's 92---Livio Sasseti and DeGrazia never advertised in the WS so I wasn't surprised the Banfi was in the top 100 not Pertimali--A few Years later the two DeGrazia exported Brunellos,Ciacci & Pertimali were not mentioned in a Tuscan feature while the Brunellos of Paterno, Banfi and Hublein aka Palace Brands were---they did mention the two restaurants, I dined at in the Siena environs.........

constructive

But is giving scores of 89 vs 91 ridiculous or is running around trying to find the 91 point wine when the 89 is being sold around the corner for a lower price the part that's ridiculous?

Is there an imaginary line at 90 points? Many people that follow Parker or WS scores believe so, but is this a function of the scale or the people reading the review. Could it not be said, that the same people would probably only buy Dale A wines or Decanter ***** wines?

Frankly, I have no issue with any rating system anyone wishes to use. Parker's 100 point (ok 50 point) scale can easily be converted to Dales A,B,C,D scale. And even Dale doesn't really use ABCD, he uses + and - so his 4 grade scale now becomes a 12 grade scale. It's his scale, he can do whatever he wants with it (as long as he keeps posting notes). It's what WE do with the scores and notes that matter.

Andy

I am not a fan of WS. I gave up subscription many years ago. Though someone gave me a gift subscription for a year about 5 years ago, and one year ago I got a year courtesy of Zachys (I just got my "this is your final issue- renew!" flyer).

There are many reasons for my disdain- it can be hard to figure who tasted some things (though that seems to have improved lately), II find Laube's crusade for squeaky clean wines doesn't match up with my tastes, Suckling I can't seem to get a grip on - he's all over the place, etc. And taking advertisements can open questions of bias.

But..but...but...

While Joe Rosenberg might percieve bias, the only study I have ever seen didn't find any. I thought it was posted here, but I can't find through Google. The more I think of it, the more I think that it was posted on WCWN (in the old format, I think I remember the threading). Perhaps Max remembers? The poster (a wine geek with a background in statistics) did a fairly sophisticated formal analysis of WS ratings for domestic wines for a couple years (he did domestic as it was harder to identify advertising for imports- some had different West Coast/East Coast importers, etc). He found no relationship between points and advertising. Except that advertisers had a small edge at being retasted in case of a bad score. I believe he did not analyze whether advertising increased ones chances of being featured as a "collectors corner", "best value", or making the WS 100 (other charges that have been leveled at WS).

One can't take a stand for blind tasting and then criticize a low score because someone deserves 80 points for getting out of bed in the morning. Besides, hasn't Giacosa (my favorite Barolo producer) long been a LoCascio/Winebow import? I don't recall a WS that didn't have a Winebow ad!

I just prefer that critcisms be based in fact, not innuendo.

No, the notion that wine can be evluated to that fine a degree is ridiculous.

Who cares? I sdon't read wine reviews anymore, ESPECIALLY Parker's. He's a moron. He thinks wine should be as thick as syrup.

I know there are people who are too stupid to trust their own judgement.

Fair Good Very Good Exceptional Superb

That's all you need.

What are talking about? He's a surpeb wine-maker. Giacosa's urine probably tastes better than most wine.

I normally try to refrain from responding,but...

Is Giacosa one of those producers who would be so insulted by someone tasting his wine?

If you read Chris's travelogues there's some great notes on folks like Bartolo Mascarello proudly offering tastes of wines that have been open for a week, too.

I like Bruno's Barbarescos and Barolos, I'll leave the urine to you.

I didn't find the study, but I found a reference to it by Jon Reuter, the guy who did it:

That's just not true. Anyone can evaluate wine to that degree. OK, maybe you can't because you would have to take your blinders off first.

He doesn't agree with your tastes so he's a moron. I think that sums up your approach to wine very clearly. You must be a blast to share a bottle with. Hopefully you're a little more tollerant in other areas of your life.

Frankly no one cares that you don't read reviews. It doesn't even cause a blip on the screen. In your warped little mind you may think it makes you superior in some way but running around proclaiming it to the world only makes you appear small and petty.

And some people are so stupid that they will only drink wine from one country because they have this absurd romantic notion that it's the only country that has wine makers that are true to their craft.

That's all you need. Other people need more. Why does it bother you so much what other people use? Does it harm you in some way? Do you feel theatened when some one uses a 100 point scale?

Tell me about your mother, was she too strict with you when you were a child?

What about your father? Did he ever tell you he loved you?

Seek professional help before it's too late.

Andy

Two wines may differ ever so slightly, but that does not make one BETTER than the other, just DIFFERENT. Two hypothetical'91 point Barbaescos, for instance, may come from different makers, different years, and will NOT taste the same. So what's the point of assigning them 91 points? It means nothing! What more do you get from that than saying "Excellent"?

No, that has nothing to do with it.

I'm a blast to share a bottle with, because I never talk about stupid points: we drink the wines and eat the food and have a great time!

You....consumer...

No, I'm not some neurotic, insecure wimp who needs OTHER people to tell him what he likes. I know what I like and what I don't like, and nobody else's opinion matters at all, especially not that of a f****it like Parker...

No, you misunderstand. Italian wines are the only ones that matter....

Precisely the oppsite: You feel insecure if your wine does not 'score' high enough on the Parkeri scale. I drink expensive wines and cheap wines, and I can tellt he differences easily enough. I am in wine shops often enough to have seen the witless come in and buy a case of Opus One...

I saw it with my own eyes. I almost fell onto the floor in a fit of convulsive laughter...

Then there was the time a blonde came into the shop, to buy a case of Pinot Grigio for a 'wine-tasting party'. When the clerk started strode over toward the Italian section, she gasped: "Oh, I didn't know there was Italian Pinot Grigio..."