He'd be pleased most by people drinking it, rather than by amateurs who don't know what they are doing trying to pretend they are pros..
His Grignolino and Barbera is good too...
Of course it does. I like one a little better so it gets a slightly higher score.
Again, I liked one a little bit more so little higher score. It's really a very simple concept.
Really? It doesn't sound that way based on what you said before. On the other hand it could just be envy but we'll leave that for another session.
And you are completely intollerant of anyone else's opinions. A real blast as long as everyone agrees with you. You seem to have this uncontrollable urge to force your opinions on everyone else. Did your mother have a very dominant personality? Was your father more of a, let's just say pacifist, that just wanted harmony in the house?
Now you've really hurt my feelings. Pass the tissue please. The shame of it all, I... I ... I consume wine.....
I think you protest too much.
Why do you feel this need to express your opinion using vulgarity? This really isn't very becoming and can be very offensive to others in this group.
I understand completely, trust me. You are narow minded and egotistical and your views are completely opposite to some of the greatest wine makers and wine drinkers from all different countries.
Maybe we should explore your hatred of anything that's not Italian a little more. Were you abused by your French teacher when you were younger? It wasn't sexual abuse, was it?
How can I be insecure when I don't even know what the wines I buy receive for scores. But that's neither here nor there, we're discussing your hang ups, not mine.
Why do you care what other people buy? Are they making you drink their wine or is this just some deep seated feeling of insecurity because you can't afford a case of Opus One? Does their choice of wines really determine their inteligence level as you imply above? If some one drinks a wine that you feel is not worthy, is the person then not worthy? If someone eats a fast food burger, are THEY judged by you as not worthy also?
That I don't doubt. I'm actually sure it happens frequently. Although I think some people would classify it as hysterical laughter.
What does the color of her hair have to do with it? It's very interesting that you mention blond. Was your mother a blond and you harbor some deep seated resentment to blond hair? Perhaps it was your stern, Austrian nanny that insisted on monthly enema's that was blond?
Does this person's ignorance of Italian Pinot Grigio make them unworthy to drink wine? Are they unworthy to breath the same air as you? What about drink from the same water fountain? Are you that insecure with your knowledge of wine that people that know less than you are some how worth less as human beings? Or is it just the blond hair that sets you off?
Andy
C'mon Scarpitti, stop posturing, you can write intelligently when you want to, why do you keep rolling back into this ridiculous mode?
I was talking about two different wines with 91 point scores. They will taste different.
See point above. Take two wines from the WS with identical scores (say a Barbera and a Barberesco) and drink them. The wines will differ considerably. What will the scores then mean?
No, that 'person' (using the term generously) has ruined the wine business.
No, I point out that some people have no business expressing opinions, as all they have done is parrot someone else's. I drink lots of wines, and I have very few opinions to express about them. It seems to me to be pointless to spend two hours discussing a great bottle of Valtellina when one could spend that time drinking it (and several other bottles) and dining (Italian regional dishes, of course) with a dozen friends in an atmosphere of conviviality.
Most people don't do the research I do, or take the time to learn first-hand the way I do.
I simply point out that most people don't know half of what they think they know.
No, I meant 'consumer' as in someone who reads Consumer Digest or Wine Spectator and then goes out and buys a case of Opus One. It has nothing to do with income; it has to do with attitude.
See previous comment.
Because Parker is a disgraceful example of what is worst about American attitudes about wine.
There is only ONE wine-producing country. The other countries produce swill.
I studied German, my friend.
I meant 'you' in the collective sense. I visit wine shops often enough to see things that are deeply disturbing.....
I don't 'care', but I find it hilarious that someone who apparently has the brains to earn a good living in his chosen profession shows so little use of them outside of it.
Over-priced swill?
It certainly shows what their psychological make-up is, and how easily influenced they are. It shows him to be a fool.
Of course not. My point is made above.
No, I almost had convulsions...
It was classic. You had to be there.
No, 'blonde'. Female. 'Blond' is male.
My mother was not a blonde. She was a dark-haired Italian.
She would have been a 'blonde', not a 'blond', had had an Austrain nanny, but I did not.
You had to have been there to appreciate this event. Did you ever see 'Born Yesterday'?
How can anybody who knows the name 'Pinot Grigio' NOT know that the name, at least, is Italian? How can anybody express surprise that the wine is made in Italy? It is impossible! You'd have to be born yesterday! How can you even be familiar with the name of this wine and not know that it comes from Italy? The 'io' ending shows it to be Italian! The name of this grape is Pinot Gris in F_____.
You just had to see it to believe it....it was hysterical...a classic 'blonde joke' moment...
That some one likes them the same. Well, with WS it's more likely that the group average was the same. So what? Why could that possibly bother you so much? If you don't like scores, ignore them. Very simple.
Do you have feelings of persecution or just inferiority? One man, single handedly, has ruined the whole wine business? WOW, from the way you talk you would think the guy was a god.
IMHO every one, every where has every right to express their opinion. In my experience, usually the more forcefully the opinion is expressed the more untrue, uninformed and damaging the opinion is. Sound familiar?
BTW, RP actually has a business expressing his opinions on wine, or so I'm told anyway.
Just as you consistently do. RP ruined the wine business. I suppose you have some facts that the wine business is ruined? Or that RP is responsible for it? You are only doing what you accuse others of doing, parroting someone else's opinion.
So you don't enjoy discussing the wine and the food. How good it is? How it may be improved? How it compares to other dishes you've made or tried? Who makes the best ... fill in your favorite dish ..? Why this wine or food has a special place in your heart because your Granma used to make it or you vacationed in the place of it's origin? What do you discuss, how great YOU are?
Most people don't drink wine at all. Of couse of the people that do, you are just so much more superior. We should all bow down in your presence. You are the only one that tries different wines, oh that's right, as long as they are Italian because no other country can produce anything that's good.
No you don't. You feel you are superior because you "know" so much more than other people. Mother Teresa probably knew very little about wine so you must be superior to her.
I'm a consumer. I consume products. You can do anything you want to try to change the meaning of the word but it doesn't make it true or an insult. Just like you emphatically proclaiming your "wisdoms" don't make them any more true.
Some people would argue that you are and Parker is only trying to sell subscriptions.
There it is. You have spoken and no one can have a different opinion of what is good wine.
I am not the Borg. There is no collective. There is no them vs you. The rest of the world is not trying to get you. I've read enough of your words to recognize deeply disturbed.
But you obviously do care. It upsets you. It disturbs you even.
If that's your opinion, don't buy it. No one cares one way or the other. Of course it must make you feel very superior when you see this happen. BTW, how many times have you tried properly aged Opus One? Or are you just parroting someone else's opinion.
Or possibly that they truely find some redeeming quality in the wine and they are willing to sacrifice their money. Maybe they just don't value money the way you appear to.
There was a point? Sorry, must have missed it. I'll have to try to find it later.
Not in common use US English.
No I don't have to see it. I respect people that know less than me about a certain subject and if they express a desire to learn, I try to teach and share, not ridicule. But that's just my nature. Your nature is obviously different from mine.
It's people like you that have pat answers that mimic someone else's opinion and think they know everything about subject, that's what I find amusing. How anyone could think what they "know" is at best an informed opinion, that there is some univeral truth in the world of wine, is just beyond me.
Andy
"JEP62" wrote in news:1142539137.545775.178420 @j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com:
Dear Andy, please don't feed the troll, thank you!
d.
PS - my rating system (lifted and abbreviated from someone named Jay, if I remember correctly?) A - This wine is great! B - This wine is good! C - This is wine! D - Is this wine?!
:)
What bothers me so much? That people take these scores seriously, that's what.
A devil, more like it....
Yes, THEIR opiion, not something they picked up somewhere, like syphilis..
Oh please, spare me. Drink a Taurino Brindisi and tell me what you think.
Yes, for the suckers...
I certainly do not.
Numerous accounts of how idigenous Italian wines have become 'Parkerized', i.e., made to appeal to Parker, instead of the traditional styles for those wines.
Over-oaked everything. I prefer the lighter touch of the botti to the barique.
My opinion is not unique:
"Many oenophiles, as they get older, tend to gravitate toward more subtle [correct form: subtler] wines, but Parker appears to want them even brawnier and bawdier. His growing predilection for freakish wines (Australian Shirazes with 15 percent alcohol and the consistency of sludge) and freakish vintages (the 2003 Rhones, the product of a lethal heat wave that nearly turned the grapes into raisins) has raised eyebrows even among some of his most slavish followers."
See above.
No, sir. I have come to this conclusion quite independently.
Yes, we do, then we move on to other discussions.
Three or four times a year my friend Mike Sellaroli and I cook Italian regional dinners and serve Italian regionall wines with them. The last one, we went through 10 bottles and served 12 people. We prepared lamb stew, saffron risotto, etc, and Arrosto Ripieno (veal):
It evaporated off the table in two minutes....
We talk about all kinds of things, but never discuss the wines in the way done here or in WS.
Hardly. I just don't buy expensive crap.
Now, you begin to understand.
It's the PRETENSE of knowledge I find repugnant. I know what I NEED to know about Italian wine: what to buy. I can go to the shop and look at the bottles in the Italian section and have a pretty good idea of what's in the bottle.
Do you buy from a magazine?
The obsession with measuring everything, having the biggest and best is something uniquely American that I find repugnant. Where else do they have spam that says: Increase your penis size!
Of course they can, but it does not mean anything.
'You' can mean 'one' or 'many'. It's a 'grammatical' collective that I meant. Do I really have to explain that to you?
It supplies material for discussions and no end of entertainment. Opus One costs $165 per bottle. I just went to the wine store a few minutes ago.
I asked the clerk who bought this stuff. He laughed and said what I thought he would say.
Some things one can tell without having to be told...
Maybe they are trying to impress themselves...why not buy a case of Bricco Roche? Perhaps because of the big ads in WS?
Nope. Wrong. Look it up. The fact that you are ignorant of its truth does not make it false.
I find things entertaining that you may not.
I don't knw 'everything about a subject' and don't pretend to. What I do know is gained by trial and error, not from reading Robert Parker. THAT is what I am talking about.
< How anyone could think what they "know" is at best an
IT would be instructive to not only show the "91 point" score, but the standard deviation of the putative measurements. We'd end up with something like
wine A 91 +/-7 wine B 89 +/-5 wine C 91 +/-10 wine D 93 +/-8
... and that would give people some idea of just how precise (or not) these scores are. But then people might learn something, and decide that "great, good, bad, ugh" is fine for them.
Of course, they'd likely add "good, not quite great but getting there" and "good enough" and "not quite bad, but more than tolerable"... and we're up to lots of points. But at least they're vague enough. :)
Jose
That's true, but it's a different point altogether. What I'm saying is that NO TWO 91 point wines will taste identical, not even of the same type and vintage (1990 Barbares, to give a good example). It is intended as a measure of 'quality', but I maintain it cannot do that.
Obsessing over grades and points is, I maintain, a kind of psychological disease. It's something uniquely American.
Correct.
I don't think this in dispute.
To the extent that one can say "this wine is better than that wine", quality can be measured. To the extent that one can say "this wine is just a teensy bit better than that wine" it gets harder. How much harder would be indicated by the standard deviation.
It is, of course, a matter of taste, but it is not =all= a matter of taste. There are good movies and bad movies too, but there are reasons why some stories just don't satisfy. Ditto wines. And there are people for whom those things don't matter to them.
Jose
It's not that it does not matter, it's that it cannot be quantified, at least not to the extent that it is supposed.
... which the error bars would reveal.
Jose
"PS - my rating system (lifted and abbreviated from someone named Jay, if I remember correctly?) A - This wine is great! B - This wine is good! C - This is wine! D - Is this wine?! "
Yep, that's Jay Miller's system (and a damn good one). \
I don't know which is crazier, a belief that another person's qualitative score is a true arbiter of quality for one's own tastes, or the belief that all wines are just different, neither better nor worse. As to the latter, let's face it, every single wine drinker I know puts a qualitative judgement on a wine. There are wines I would buy at $5, ones I'd buy at $10, $15, 20 etc up to $100 (once we get over three figures, there are generally factors other than solely wine quality that spur me to cross that threshold on the very rare occasions
- maybe 10 times total- that I have). Is anyone different? Deciding the price we would pay for a wine is in effect a rating system.
Enough Scarpitti, enough !!!
We all know your thoughts re tasting. We all know your thoughts re scoring. We all know your thoughts re consuming wine only with food. We all know of you passion for things Italian, to the exclusion of all else.
When you chose to express your considerable knowledge of Italian wines, you are an informed contributor.
When you choose to rant on and on and on and on - you are just a bloody bore.
Hey, some of us here will agree with your sentiments on tasting; some won't agree - so what! Some of us here may agree with your thoughts re scoring; others won't - so what! Some will agree that wine should only be consumed with food - I know I don't - so what! I know I enjoy many Italian wines - and French and German and Australian and NZ and Chilean and South African and Spanish and Portuguese and Hungarian - you choose to limit yourself - your choice - so what!
You choose to limit your experience to one country's produce. Your specialist subject is wines of Italy. SO WHAT! I do not place any limitations on my experiences - I do not have a specialist subject - I know a little about a lot. SO WHAT!
At times I bow to your superior knowledge.
But most of the time, you are simply a pain in the f*#%^#g ass who is doing his damndest to ruin an excellent forum.
I think that sums it up pretty nicely. It why I taste wine. To determine if it's worth the asking price and if it's worth cellaring.
Andy
That is all you ever do is parrot other peoples opinions. I wouldn't be surprised if your comments about specific wines even came from someone else's website.
Andy
What evidence of this do you have?
What kind of chump do you take me for? It's impossible to prove a negative. I have a degree in philosophy.
Have you stopped beating your wife?
I can tell you that I express only my own opinions of wines, and only of those which I have enjoyed. Why would I waste my time talking about something with which I have no experience?
For the record, have you any experience with:
Velletri Morellino di Scansano Bricco del'Uccellone Valtellina Brindisi Patriglione Taurino Taurasi Riserva Mastroberardino
Well, I do! I have enjoyed all of these wines within the last two years.
I didn't say that. What I said was that two so-called 91 point wines may differ considerably. Such a finely graded point system is thus almost meaningless.
Yes, but it's a behavior, not a metric.
I prefer to know more about a more-restricted area. Knowing only a little is useless. One could spend decades exploring ONLY Tusan wines! Trying to know a little about all the wines in the world is to me a pointless exercise, since so many of these wines are not compatible with Italian regional cooking. Why, if I am engaged in Italian regional cooking, should I bother with Australian or Chilean wines, when wines from the region are a natural match? If I were going to produce a Chilean meal, it might make sense.
No, I'm simply poking fun at the absurdities I see in the wine world.
True.
Whtether it is meaningless or not does not follow from the first statement. If two people take two identical objective true-false tests, and get the same 91% score, this does not mean that they have the identical knowledge (they may have gotten different questions wrong), nor does it mean that such tests are meaningless.
Jose
DrinksForum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.